Cuomo on Bathroom Bill: Conservatives 'Don't Like Transgender People Getting What They Want'

April 4th, 2016 1:54 PM

On Monday's New Day on CNN, co-host Chris Cuomo dismissively suggested that supporters of the "bathroom bill" in North Carolina that would bar men from using women's public restrooms in government buildings in reality support the measure because they "don't like these transgender people getting what they want" as he began a debate with guest Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council.



The segment almost seemed like a parody making fun of a liberal caricature as Cuomo seriously defended the idea of biological men choosing to identify themselves as women and using women's bathrooms. After Sprigg recalled that the bill preserves the universal cultural tradition "that we separate biological males and biological females for the purpose of certain intimate activities like bathing, dressing, and going to the bathroom," the CNN host dismissed possible dangers for women and girls and fretted that "We do see the risk to transgender people when they're called out and exposed to this kind of scrutiny." Cuomo began his response:

But times change, and that's what this is really about. Are you ready to change in North Carolina? Are you ready to respect transgendered people for what they say they are? Because you can't point to any potential danger here. I know that's what you're doing and others are doing, saying there's a risk to women if the -- but we don't see that play out in any statistic that you can cite.

He added:

You know, I know you've been using the baker analogy that we saw with gay marriage, you shouldn't have these bakers having to bake cakes for people they don't want, you shouldn't have these girls having to go into bathrooms with people they don't want. We don't see that risk. However, we do see the reciprocal risk. We do see the risk to transgender people when they're called out and exposed to this kind of scrutiny.

After his guest recalled that he believes there are "legitimate fears" about safety, Cuomo jumped in and demanded, "How are they legitimate? How are they legitimate?" leading Sprigg to respond:

When you see someone who is obviously a man, regardless of whether they're wearing a dress or not, I think a woman in a restroom where she expects to only be with women or a girl who expects to be with girls has a right to feel uncomfortable about that and to feel like her privacy has been violated. It's a privacy issue, even if their safety is never violated in practice.

Ignoring the primary concern that biological men would be able to go into women's restrooms, Cuomo switched to the opposite case of a biological woman who identifies as a man being forced to go into a women's room and accused conservative supporters of the bathroom bill of "creating the problem." Cuomo:

But the point is, the reason it looks like a man is because the person identifies as a man, so they want to go into the man's bathroom. You're saying, "Yeah, but on the birth certificate, it still says that that person's a woman, so they have to go into the woman's bathroom." You're creating the problem, you're not solving it.

Cuomo then dismissed the idea of men "pretending" to be women as he and his guest went back and forth:

SPRIGG: No, no, the transgender people are creating the problem by pretending to be the opposite of their actual biological sex, even when people can see they are their biological sex.

CUOMO: See, but that's the pretending part, though, Peter, right? Because that's the concern. You're saying they're pretending, they're saying they're not pretending, and this is part of cultural evolution. You seem unwilling to embrace that.

Below is a transcript of the relevant portion of the Monday, April 4, New Day on CNN:

6:39 a.m. ET
CHRIS CUOMO: All right, so this is a big situation that's bubbling up as a culture war here in the United States. Mississippi and North Carolina now in the cultural cross hairs. Here's the latest: 120 plus CEOs from Apple to Starbucks demanding that the governor of North Carolina repeal a so-called "bathroom bill." This new law forces transgender people to use public bathrooms that correspond to their gender on their birth certificates. Opponents say it's discriminatory, against federal law. But really this is what people in a state like and don't like. So let's have this cultural conversation.

Let's bring in Peter Sprigg, senior fellow for policy studies at the Family Research Council, supports the law. Peter, always a pleasure to see you. Thanks for coming on New Day to make the case. Peter, do you accept my premise? We know what federal law is. We know what Title IX is. We know what the Supreme Court did with the Fourteenth Amendment equal protection right to marry for gay couples, LGBT couples. But this is about something else. This is also about what is liked and not liked. Isn't that the case that North Carolina, Mississippi should be making? We don't care about the law, this is about what we like as a people, and we don't like these transgender people getting what they want, so we're going to stop it.

[PETER SPRIGG, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL]

CUOMO: Well, I mean, I think it's more about culture, and I think we should have that discussion. But, just to be clear, Title IX, okay, which is obviously discrimination on discrete categories, there hasn't been specific case about transgender yet, but we do know that transgender has been in many cases applied as a Title IX requirement category, so that would be the legal basis of this contravening federal law would then trigger funding mandates about places that receive federal funds. But, again, whether this is legal or not can be tested out. Isn't this about something else? This is about what folks in North Carolina and Mississippi right now -- Georgia recently -- want and don't want

SPRIGG: Well, I agree that it's about culture, and it always has been part -- not only of our culture but of every culture that's ever existed -- that we separate biological males and biological females for the purpose of certain intimate activities like bathing, dressing, and going to the bathroom. And that's all that this bills provides, is retaining the status quo with respect to that long-standing tradition.

CUOMO: But times change, and that's what this is really about. Are you ready to change in North Carolina? Are you ready to respect transgendered people for what they say they are? Because you can't point to any potential danger here. I know that's what you're doing and others are doing, saying there's a risk to women if the -- but we don't see that play out in any statistic that you can cite.

You know, I know you've been using the baker analogy that we saw with gay marriage, you shouldn't have these bakers having to bake cakes for people they don't want, you shouldn't have these girls having to go into bathrooms with people they don't want. We don't see that risk. However, we do see the reciprocal risk. We do see the risk to transgender people when they're called out and exposed to this kind of scrutiny.

SPRIGG: Well, even if the fears that many people have and I think legitimate fears that people have about their safety-

CUOMO: How are they legitimate?

SPRIGG: -in a ladies room for example are not-

CUOMO: How are the legitimate?

SPRIGG: Well, I think it's, when you see someone who is obviously a man, regardless of whether they're wearing a dress or not, I think a woman in a restroom where she expects to only be with women or a girl who expects to be with girls has a right to feel uncomfortable about that and to feel like her privacy has been violated. It's a privacy issue, even if their safety is never violated in practice.

CUOMO: But the point is, the reason it looks like a man is because the person identifies as a man, so they want to go into the man's bathroom. You're saying, "Yeah, but on the birth certificate, it still says that that person's a woman, so they have to go into the woman's bathroom." You're creating the problem, you're not solving it.

SPRIGG: No, no, the transgender people are creating the problem by pretending to be the opposite of their actual biological sex, even when people can see they are their biological sex.

CUOMO: See, but that's the pretending part, though, Peter, right? Because that's the concern. You're saying they're pretending, they're saying they're not pretending, and this is part of cultural evolution. You seem unwilling to embrace that.

SPRIGG: I am unwilling to embrace that, and most of the American public is unwilling to embrace the idea that people's inner feelings somehow trump the objective reality of their -- the biological reality of their bodies. It's very much a world view issue, and it's one where the American public is not on the side of the transgender movement. But I want to point out something about even so meeting the needs of these transgender individuals.

This bill does not -- first of all, this bill applies only to government-owned buildings, so it doesn't say anything -- your privately-owned restaurants and stores and businesses can adopt whatever policy they want. This bill is about keeping government out of private businesses, not getting the government involved in them. And so, you know, I think that's actually a very generous accommodation, but transgender activists consider that, even that to be a form of discrimination.

CUOMO: And the reason why is because: What worse message can be sent than the state action being, "We are against the freedom of these individuals"? Look, this is going to wind up playing out in court. Right now, it's political, and that's why all our eyes are on North Carolina to see if the governor undoes what has been done, and Mississippi as well and see what the governor does there at all.