MSNBC Live
01/22/14
11:30
BRIAN SHACTMAN: On this 41st
anniversary of the Supreme Court's historic Roe v. Wade decision, the bitter
cold and the blowing snow are not keeping protesters off the national mall today
for the annual March for Life. Today’s march takes place on the heels of a year
when some 24 states passed 53 restrictive abortion laws. That's a whopping 205
laws in just the last three years, which is more, for perspective here, than
all the restrictive laws passed in the last decade. And as the Republican
National Committee holds its winter meeting today in D.C., chair Reince Priebus said, "We
thought it only fitting our members attend the
march." Joining me now to discuss, Ilyse Hogue,
president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, which just last week came out with a new
report on reproductive rights. Ilyse,
thanks for coming on the show.
ILYSE HOGUE: Thanks for
having me, Brian.
SHACTMAN: You know, Rick
Santorum, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, they are going to be there, along
with a handful of other congressmen. Organizers say they’re not going to give
these long speeches, they’re going to try to involve social media a little bit
more, even support for the pope. They’re trying to get hip, I guess. I mean,
what's the impact of the March for Life? Does it have one?
HOGUE: Well, I mean, I think
it's clear that they felt the need to cater to this extreme piece of their
base, and, in fact, if you can read the tea leaves, 2014 is going to be more of
the same in terms of catering to that base. The good news is that we know that
the majority of Americans support the rights enshrined by Roe – in Roe – and
are actually sick of our political debate being dominated by what most people
accept as settled law. We'd like to have a conversation about a real women's
agenda that supports women throughout our lifetime, both when we are not ready
to be parents, but also when we are, and that's nowhere on the GOP's agenda.
SHACTMAN: Well, how do you
reconcile all these laws are getting passed at the state level, yet the public
sentiment is what it is?
HOGUE: Yeah, it's amazing,
isn't it? I think what we're seeing is the culmination of three decades of
strategy by anti-choice – the anti-choice minority. They were very savvy about
taking over state houses, leveraging redistricting to their benefit in the
House of Representatives, and definitely paying attention to judicial nominees.
The good news is, 70 percent of Americans actually support the rights enshrined
in Roe and we're starting to see the momentum shift back in our direction. We
saw it in 2013 with the
SHACTMAN: You know, it's
funny, but the Republicans are sort of changing their rhetorical angle on this,
and I just want to get to a couple things and then put a question to you. The
president did release a statement saying on this anniversary, "We recommit
ourselves to the decision’s guiding principle: that every woman should be able
to make her own choices about her body and her health." Meanwhile, this
debate over women’s rights has taken on even greater meaning in the midterms
and you just touched on it, there are red state Democrats up for re-election.
They’re hoping that that success in
HOGUE: No, I actually, you
know, look, we agree. Reproductive freedom is ground zero for women's ability
to determine our economic security. There is nowhere in the world that you see
a place that doesn't have access for women to family planning that does well on
any other socioeconomic factor, and women in this country experience it the
same. The GOP is wildly out of step. I said this morning in Politico, they’re
not anti-abortion, they are anti-women living any kind
of life that is different from the one that they determine. That's why they
vote against contraception. That’s why they vote against comprehensive sex ed. If they were really anti-abortion, they would embrace
all of the preventative measures and education that we know
give women power to make decisions about our reproductive freedom. We
believe that when we expose the fact that they also vote against helping
low-income women who are parents – in fact, Governor John Kasich took
money out of Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and moved it into fake
clinics that lie to women – that we'll
see that not only are they out of step on these issues, but they’re out of step
on the real economics that allow women to get ahead in this country.
SHACTMAN: It is the – one
thing that is amazing through all this, Ilyse, and
thanks for the insight, is that 41 years later, it's still a huge battleground
issue and a lot of people had hoped that it wasn't. NARAL president Ilyse Hogue, we appreciate the time.
HOGUE: Thank you.
SHACTMAN: Alright, I'd like
to bring in today's agenda panel. Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, an MSNBC contributor, professor at the
SABRINA SIDDIQUI: Sure. Well,
we have a new poll done in collaboration with YouGov
that shows that while Americans continue to be fairly evenly split in terms of
how they view abortion from an ideological perspective, a growing number of
Americans don't believe that the government has a place in determining what a
woman’s access to abortion should be. So 64 percent of respondents actually
said that decisions on abortion should be made between a woman and her doctor,
whereas just 24 percent of respondents said that the government has a right or
obligation to pass new restrictions on abortion. Moreover, it was only 35
percent of respondents that said that they would favor Congress passing new
restrictions on abortion. So while it's true that Republicans have a
state-level advantage that has enabled them to pass a growing number of laws
that would restrict women's access to abortion across the country, those views
are increasingly out of step with the American public.
SHACTMAN: Well again, let's
build on this, Irin, because msnbc.com has some
graphics on the website with some of these statistics. One compares abortion
laws in the year 2000 compared to 2013. Now the dark color represents states
most hostile to abortion rights and you can see it's about doubled. Now if, as
we've talked about, more people want the government to stay out of this issue,
and again I'm going to ask the same question I asked – why is this happening?
IRIN CARMON: Right, well I
mean, I think Ilyse mentioned that there has been a
strategy. A lot of places in which the anti-abortion movement first tried,
especially at the Supreme Court, it failed. What they realized is that the
Supreme Court did open the door for them to pass a certain number of
restrictions that would place roadblocks in women's ways. So technically, even
in states where it's technically legal, there are all sorts of restrictions
that fall into a legal gray area where abortion is legal but it’s extremely
onerous and difficult, particularly for low-income women, women who live in
remote places, like the Rio Grande valley where clinics have closed thanks to
the restrictions passed in Texas, so I think that they’re realizing that with
federal gridlock, with a certain limit to what they can do from the court's
perspective, they can – there's a lot
that they can do to make life more difficult for women who are seeking
abortions.
SHACTMAN: Right, and how they
frame it – Vicki, I don't know if you
saw this, and you can chime in on what you just heard, but also a Louisville
radio station reported that Kentucky state Rep. Joe Fischer, who’s a
Republican, he amended a domestic violence bill to include language limiting
abortions at 20 weeks. He says abortion is, "The most brutal form of
domestic violence." How do you react to that?
VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO SOTO:
You know, Brian, abortion, like with most issues, is a
local issue. Again, echoing what Irin said, and I
think that what we need to do going forward is slug it out at the state level.
I think Democrats sometimes tend to not focus so much on the midterm elections
and we see our big turnouts for our presidential elections, especially among
Latinos and youth – core constituencies of the Democratic party that don’t turn
out. So if we want to see the essence of Roe V. Wade recaptured, we need to
start at the state house level and we need to uber-mobilize
these constituencies that don't tend to turn out, because this is the only way
we're going to have a blockade toward those infringement of choice rights.
SHACTMAN: Well and, you know –
I could talk more about this, but I want to take a bit of a turn, because it's
obviously related. At least one of you mentioned how out of touch you think the
Republican party is. And so Sabrina, I'll put it to
you: how is the Republican party going to appeal to
more contemporary women with this kind of stance? I mean, how are they going to
win those votes?
SIDDIQUI: Well, I think that
the Republican National Committee has certainly talked about the need to appeal
to women. At the same time, they are also considering a resolution this week
that would urge candidates to stand their ground on abortion and defend their
position on abortion. I think, you know, with respect to congressional
Republicans, one of the problems they face is that lawmakers are under a
constant threat of facing a primary challenge and a very real primary
challenge, so that has prevented them from sort of moderating their position on
abortion. At the same time, I think that they are sort of trying to train their
candidates not to at least make comments that would offend women. We've all
heard about, you know, the training to not talk about rape and come up with
other ways to talk about why they are pro-life and sort of defend that stance.
I don't think we're going to see any shift in policies, certainly not in a
midterm election year, which as others mentioned is a turnout election. It’s about
making sure that the base comes out and votes.
SHACTMAN: You know, I think
the rhetorical change to make it more of an economic issue as opposed to
social, in some ways, you know, it makes more sense, because when they talk
about the social side of it, that's when they get into real trouble with the
average American. But Irin, I want to put this to you
because Americans United for Change, they brought out a Tea Party score card
that’s described as a tool for voters to hold Republicans accountable for
aligning themselves with the Tea Party, and basically it seems like that’s
another way to get people who are more moderate to not be moderate. I mean,
it's almost getting impossible for a Republican to be in the center, right?
CARMON: Right. Well, and I think
that one way in which our two discussions mesh is that abortion is an issue
that they all agree on. You know, they have tactical problem – they have
tactical issues amongst themselves, even some of those quote-unquote “more
moderate Republicans” don't have such ideological differences from the
self-avowed Tea Partiers. It's more how willing are they to put grinds – to put
to a grinding halt the functions of the government, as we saw last year, so I
think one of the reasons actually even in the House of Representatives, which
knows that it's going to get roadblocked by the
Senate and the president on many measures, including those restricting a
woman's right to choose, is that it's one of the few consensus items in which
there isn't a lot of ideological or strategic disagreement. It's really just a
matter of rhetoric and focus. And as for, you know, abortion as an economic
issue, which absolutely reproductive freedom is an economic issue, so far all
I've really heard from Republicans is that they think that restricting a woman’s
access to abortion is going to create more jobs because there are going to be
more babies, and that's not necessarily what I would consider a sound economic
theory, but I'm open to being persuaded.
SHACTMAN: I mean, Vicki, you
think that the Republicans, they’re not done here, that they could get some
real traction in the midterms, isn't that right?
SOTO: You know, with the
issue of women, they definitely have a black eye there, but they’re going to be
trying to distract the general electorate from the issue of women, and I think
two of those issues are immigration, where we see some signals that the
Republican party wants to move forward. Of course,
it's not going to be a comprehensive reform type of immigration, but some
movement. Also recent talk about school vouchers and these are two elements
that George W. Bush put into place during the 2000s and was able to moderate
the party. Obviously, it's not going to be a 180, but we do see some movement.
But I think the most important factor is that we see some establishment
Republicans getting ready to play offense toward that Tea Party extreme. I
don't know if it's going to be effective or not, we'll know in March, but we do
have the Roves and the other moderate Republicans saying don't keep turning us
further right, because we're never going to win elections at the national
level.
SHACTMAN: Well you know, I
just want to say, you know, I’ve said this before on air when they had the
budget deal with Paul Ryan and Boehner slapping back at the Tea Party, it
looked like there was an opening there for some moderation, but then it seems
like it hasn't gotten a whole lot of momentum. Guys, we appreciate it. MSNBC contributor Victoria DeFrancesco
Soto, Msnbc.com's Irin
Carmon, and The Huffington Post’s Sabrina Siddiqui.
***
MSNBC Live
01/22/14
12:49
RICHARD LUI: Forty-one years
ago today, a Supreme Court ruling recognized a woman's constitutional right to
an abortion. In that case, Roe v. Wade has become among the most famous and
divisive in the high court's history. The president put out a statement earlier
saying, in part, "As we reflect on the 41st anniversary of the Supreme
Court decision in Roe v. Wade, we recommit ourselves to the decision's guiding
principle, that every woman should be able to make her own choices about her
body and her health." And 40-plus years after that decision, the issue is
still surrounded on both sides by a great deal of passion. Some of that passion
is on display this afternoon, as anti-abortion marchers brave the cold to
gather in
TERRY O’NEILL: You know, I
think what's really striking about the past year is a growing disconnect
between what voters want in terms of women's health policy and what
legislators, particularly legislators in states around the country. But also
what courts are doing. So the voters on the one hand, support for women's
abortion rights and women's access to the full range of reproductive health services
is actually growing right now, for the past two to three years it's been
growing. And yet the attacks on women's access to abortion care, to birth
control, to women's health clinics where they can get STD treatments, those
attacks have escalated by elected officials. So there's this huge divide.
LUI: So you've also got the
divide reflecting more restrictive laws, and we're seeing that on the local and
state level.
O’NEILL: You know, a part of it is the way we do voting anymore. Ever since
the Supreme Court opened the floodgates for corporate funding of elections,
what we have seen is Tea Party extremists flooding into state legislatures and
even into the United States Congress, particularly the U.S. House of
Representatives, where Tea Party extremists hold sway on most policies over
John Boehner and Eric Cantor. So I think money and politics is a huge problem.
LUI: You know, the Supreme
Court last week, they declined to hear an appeal and overturned
O’NEILL: You know, I'm very concerned about where the Supreme Court is
heading. Yes, it's a small, possibly a temporary victory. There are nearly a
dozen states that have outright criminalized abortion at 20 weeks gestation.
Actually,
LUI: Terry --
O’NEILL: Yes?
LUI: – thank you so much. I'm
sorry, we've got to go to breaking news. Terry O'Neill on the 41st anniversary of Roe v. Wade.
***
MSNBC NOW with Alex Wagner
01/22/14
4:33
ALEX WAGNER: Roe v. Wade
turns 41 years old today. Forty-one years and one day ago, on January 21, 1973,
abortion was only legal in a handful of states. The next day, it was legal in
the entire country after the Supreme Court ruled that abortion was a legal right,
one protected by the Constitution. But 41 years later the fight is hardly over.
This morning, thousands of anti-abortion protesters marched on Capitol Hill for
the annual March for Life. They then made their way to the Supreme Court to
protest a woman's right to choose. Seven in 10 Americans think Roe v. Wade
should stand, but that hasn’t stopped efforts throughout the country to
restrict abortion at the state level. In the latest issue of Rolling Stone
magazine, Janet Reitman chronicles what she calls the
stealth war on abortion being waged by “highly coordinated and so far
chillingly successful nationwide campaign, often funded by the same people who
fund the Tea Party, to make it harder and harder for women to terminate
unwanted pregnancies and also to limit their access to many forms of
contraception.” Joining me now is
contributing editor for Rolling Stone magazine Janet Reitman.
Janet, I said this to you before the segment began. This is one of the most
important pieces I have read about women's health and reproductive freedoms and
what is actually happening behind the scenes to restrict choice. Let's start
first about the broad change in strategy from, as you write in the piece, the
focus of being on the unborn to putting the focus on women and women's safety
and health.
JANET REITMAN: Right. Women's health.
WAGNER: Tell us more about
how that strategy – the iteration of that strategy.
REITMAN: Well I think the
thing was is that the pro-life movement realized over the years that casting
women’s – excuse me, casting abortion as a matter of fetal murder was just a
completely unsuccessful strategy and it made them look kind of like extremists,
if you’re waving like the bloody fetus pictures and kind of holding these
massive rallies and blockading the clinics. None of this really worked and it
just actually marginalized them, I believe. So what they – and actually
according to some of these people, that is exactly what they've felt. And so
over the years, people who were looking at this from a more strategic level
were thinking, well, how can we chip away at this at the state level? And let's
try to pass legislation that will restrict abortion and we'll do so in a way
that makes it seem like we're protecting women's health, and that’s exactly
what they’ve done.
WAGNER: And you point out in
the, you know, we talk about the safety issue and you compare abortions to
colonoscopies. The mortality rate for abortions is less than .67 per 100,000
procedures. For colonoscopies, it’s 20 out of 100,000. You do not see a huge
sort of anti-colonoscopy lobby. This is not about women’s safety. This is about
restricting choice. But this is not just a couple of sort of well-organized
individuals. I mean, the most shocking, I think, part of the piece is the
behind-the-scenes funding of organizations like the National Right to Life
Committee and the Americans United for Life, AUL, which in terms of drafting
this legislation are a lot like the American Legislative Exchange Council,
ALEC, which has been a huge driver in voter suppression laws and a host of
other conservative principles. Tell us about how these groups operate.
REITMAN: They operate in much
the same way that ALEC does. They write model legislation. They send this out
to legislators across the country, state and federal. They attend ALEC
conferences. People from the Americans United for Life go to ALEC conferences
and they don't present, but they do sort of pass out their literature and make
this available to the people – to legislators who go, and many of those people –
most of them, in many regards, are pro-life anyway. And so these agendas are
very much connected. And the thing is is that most
reporters don't really cover this enough or know this enough to make these
connections, but if you talk to enough people, specifically those who cover the
Religious Right, they have been documenting the ways in which the Religious
Right has formed a real union with the fiscal conservatives. And personally, I think
that’s the story, is the stealthy connection between the two.
WAGNER: In the piece, I’ll
quote, you say, “Some abortion-rights advocates have compared the Americans
United for Life, AUL, to ALEC, the secret corporate-funded organization
responsible for many of the country’s voter suppression and stand your ground
laws. Each year, AUL sends state and federal lawmakers across the country a
700-page-plus pro-life playbook featuring a 50-state report card on the state
of anti-abortion legislation as well as a step-by-step guide to help lawmakers
understand that Roe v. Wade doesn't preclude them from passing common-sense
legislation.” They have been incredibly effective in this as you point out,
again, in the piece. Over the past three years, 205 abortion restrictions were
enacted. That number just seems to be going up.
REITMAN: Yeah, it does. And I
think that it's going to keep getting -- you're going to at least see these
attempts in more and more states and more and more of these attempts as we get
closer and closer down the line. I mean, I think that 2014 will be interesting
because this issue is now becoming a real issue for progressives and, you know,
I'm not the only journalist who have made these connections and have written
stories like this. I mean, I think that more and more people are asking these
questions and looking at this more closely, so we'll see what happens.
WAGNER: Just before we let
you go, in terms of the response from progressives, do you sense that there are
the beginnings of organizations and sort of networking around this that can be
a progressive pro-choice answer to what’s happening in the religious,
conservative, anti-choice world?
REITMAN: I mean, I'd like to say yes. I hope so. But I think that what we’re
– I think the real problem is funding. And I think they're just really
massively out-funded by the Right. And in some ways they have an organizational
structure on the Right that is just – it’s bigger and it's extremely targeted.
And I just think that progressives are having to wake
up to this very quickly and get themselves mobilized, and I hope they do.
WAGNER: Well, the first step to mobilization is awareness. Janet Reitman from Rolling Stone, thank you so much for your time.