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For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: Russia and Georgia -- how serious is it?

Until yesterday, the energy and precious metal markets brushed off this recent Russian aggression. Our media are certainly reporting it, but possibly not with the caution it deserves. Isn't it possible that this represents the beginning of a new wave of Russian imperialism with rather ominous portent?

To a large extent, the Soviet Union collapsed because it went bankrupt and didn't have the money to control all of its people anymore. With oil over $100, Russia now has the funds it needs to become a super power again. Is that Putin's goal, and should we not only be concerned, but be doing something about it? If the latter, what?

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Russia has the second strongest military in the world

Whatever we decide to do it should not involve armed conflict with Russia since they have the second strongest military in the world.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Poptech, how ever you want

Poptech, how ever you want to look at it, Russsia may have one of the largest military in the world, but they still use old equipment. The T-72 is there primary battle tank. The best they have. The M1 tank is the main battle tank of the US. The T-72 was around during the Vietnam war. There planes are where they have concentrated their inovation, and compared to the F-22, fall way short. In other words, it may be big, but it is not that strong. It would fall into the same catagory as China.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

That all may be

That all may be true...Russia's ability to make conventional warfare pales in comparison to the United States and NATO forces, however, they are still in control of about half of the strategic nuclear weapons that exist on the planet in addition to a massive amount of chemical weapons, hence their boldness and the world's caution.

"Russia possesses the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction in the world. Russia declared an arsenal of 40,000 tons of chemical weapons in 1997 and is said to have had around 6681 nuclear weapons stockpiled in 2005, making its stockpile the largest in the world. The Soviet Union ratified the Geneva Protocol on January 22, 1975 with reservations. The reservations were later dropped on January 18, 2001." http://en.wikipedia....

If you want to know their ultimate destination, see http://www.youtube.c...

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31

 Russian military is a

 Russian military is a joke.

We have stealth fighters, stealth bombers, and guess what stealth ICBMs.  What they could get in the air would be shot down immediatly.  Whe have the addresses of the rest of the stuff.  Size does matter but not in this case.

 Not to be too cocky but it would be like a man fighting a child.

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

Semperright, you are

Semperright, you are correct. Russia just lost a critical part of their early warning system in the Check Republic. They are no longer in control of all of their former nukes. Russia is headed for the restoration of the old soviet states. The Russian history is exactly what we are seeing now in Georgia. Russia moves troops into an area, "peacekeepers". Russian special forces move in to train and equip rebels. They send the rebels in to create problems, kill civilians and destroy villages. Russia sayes they will stop the rebels. Rebel attacks increase. The country in question moves to quell said rebels. Mean time Russia has quitely built up the troops to the point of about 3 to 1. When the country moves to defend their population, Russia pounces.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Can't buy me superpower status

bass, I would add that their logistical infrastructure is still horrifyingly bad, and that since their military is constituted mostly of sullen conscripts, that makes for additional problems.  (Their shenanigans in Georgia against civilians is a major mark of an undisciplined, unprofessional military.) 

Not to be complacent but I would offer that in some ways the modern-day Russian military is weaker than the Red Army of old.

You cannot buy your way into superpower status.  Russia may be awash in oil money, but it has invested this poorly, and is highly exposed to a shock when oil prices head south (Isaac Newton lives in economics too, surprisingly.)  In some ways I see a repeat of 19th Century Russia, only back then it was awash in wheat money until Canada, Argentina, and some other country called the United States began offering different sources of wheat (American varieties were found to be superior to the Russian and became high demand).  It didn't know what to do with it then, either.

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

As long as we dont have to

As long as we dont have to fight with boots on teh ground we are vastly superior.  But boots on gound requires mega logistics and effort.  I say we go and wipe out their tanks and make sure there is air superiority and let the Georgians do the rest.  Im sure in taking out the armor and planes we could soften the boots up a bit also.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

I agree Dan. We should have

I agree Dan. We should have taken action when the Russians took the humvees. Should have destroyed them and all the Russians around them. We should have had the planes in the air when the Russians were not out when they said they would be. Violate a peace agreement, or a cease fire? 1000lb bombs on your heads.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Forget the bombs. Just

Forget the bombs. Just gather up all the Thunderbird, Cisco, Night Train, Wild Irish Rose, Everclear, MD20/20 and cheap vodka you can lay your hands on, and drop that instead. Then, just stand by and watch them drink themselves to death.

The most ridiculous idea I have ever heard

If you want to see REAL casualties try to start taking out Russian tanks. You think Putin is going to let us bomb his tanks? He could wipe out a carrier battle group with one bomb.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Poptech, dont be

Poptech, dont be rediculous. Do you really think that the Russians would elevate a confilct to the nuke level, just because of a few outdated tanks or dead soldiers? All that would do is cause Moscow to melt away, and they know it.

You evidently have bought into the propaganda that Russia fields. The Russian army is using outdated equipment. There have been no up grades in their equipment sense the 80's. The T-80 is the best tank they have and can be taken out with an RPG. Either a 4 or an 18. There upgrades amount to reactive armor. Not effective aginst the AT-4 or Javalin. The Hind is the most effective weapon they have. And aginst any US aircraft, places second best.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Russian RPG-29s can disable M1 Tanks

They don't need to use a high yield nuke. You think Putin would just melt away? Where does this come from?

The T-90 is the best tank they have and there are MANY variants of RPGs. The ones we most encountered in Iraq are mostly RPG-7 variants but RPG-29s can disable M1 Tanks.

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RPG-29 can damage an M1,

RPG-29 can damage an M1, but the M1 is still effective even when it cannot move. M1's have light side armor, and the rear can be penetrated by 30mm weapons fire to disable the engine. But the M1 can still shoot even when disabled. The RPG-29 is not a tank killer anymore than the 18. The RPG-28 is the tank killer. Kind of an AT-4 type weapon. Not really an RPG at all. Putin will not just melt away, not untill he is thrashed.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Once a tank is disabled it is a sitting duck for artillery ect..

Once a tank is disabled you get pound it with artillery (which the russians have plenty) hit it with aircraft or attack it with RPGs. We would not be facing outdated T-72s with no air support, effective artillery or missile systems.

The Russians are well aware of what works against M1s, they can field test by seeing what has worked based on what they sold, who do you think made the RPG-29 that disabled the M1? They would know what to deploy and it is not going to be the surplus we are going against in Iraq.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Wrong Again

"Once a tank is disabled you get pound it with artillery (which the
russians have plenty) hit it with aircraft or attack it with RPGs.
"

Wrong again. It’s beyond foolish to use artillery on mobile tank formations (the Russians know this), even if one or more of those tanks are disabled. Artillery is fixed to a specific location while prepping and firing. Once an artillery piece fires it's first round, it‘s location has been revealed. If they don’t MOVE that piece soon after firing it‘s first round, it comes under fire from our MOBILE anti-tank weaponry like Apache Helicopters, A-10 Warthogs, Bombers, Tanks, etc. That artillery isn’t going to last long after it’s first shot.

As for attacking aircraft, we supply close air support to our tank formations. That support includes anti-aircraft defenses. That attacking aircraft won't even get close enough for the pilot to scream obscenities over the radio before they're blown out of the sky.

As for man portable anti-tank weapons like an RPG, they are short-ranged weapons and the person using it must have a clear line of fire. Once spotted, a single A-10 or Apache would shred any approaching infantry unit or individual into tiny little pieces. The only time someone would attack an M1 with a short range weapon is in a urban environment where concealment is readily available. Too bad for the that attacking soldier that they won't be alive long enough to gloat about their first hit. Remember that close air support?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Mobile?

If the tank is disabled it is not mobile anymore. All that Air Support is going against Russian air support and defenses, this is not Iraq. Keep dreaming about delusions.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

lets compare

The Soviets went into Afghanistan 1979 and retreated in defeat ten years later.

 The U.S. eneters Afghanistan October 2001. In January 2002 the enemy is vanquished.

 

 

 

Nuff said  "Some people

Nuff said 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

Poptech..what about

Poptech..what about Vietnam?

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

We effectively lost

We entered and left roughly ten years later in defeat. It did not reflect on our true military power just like Russia's experience in Afghanistan did not reflect it's own.

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Pop, we did not leave

Pop, we did not leave Vietnam in defeat. We left in 73. Congress cut off South Vietnam supplies, bullits and spare parts to repair the equipment. Siagon fell in 75. We had been gone 2 years. The only American military there were at the embassy. North Vietnam agreeded to the peace agreement because they were defeated. Your uncle Ho was ready to surrender when offered the deal, and he took it, used the 2 years to rebuild the NVA and attacked from Laos and Cambodia. The American military did not leave in defeat at all. Seems like with all your cut and paste, you would at least read some history. I mean real history instead of repeating what you hear.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Oh my bad we really won Vietnam

As evident by it's democratic government today. Next you will tell me we won Korea too.

Oh I am well aware of the history of Vietnam, now please explain how Russia "leaving" Afghanistan is any different.

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Korea

We did win Korea.  To this day there is a nation called the Republic of Korea. 

Now, it would have been better had we totally destroyed the DPRK.  But nonetheless, as the Republic of Korea was not pushed into the sea, we won, and the DPRK's objective of enslaving the entire peninsula was not met.   

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

We won Korea?

Then why is there a DMZ manned by thousands of our troops and a nuclear armed Communist Dictator in the North?

Funny about Korea we got pushed back by an "inferior" chinese army.

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We lost Korea?

Then what the hell was I doing living in South Korea two-three years ago?  Why is there a South Korea with the third largest economy in Asia and 11th largest in the world, with 650,000 troops under arms? 

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Because it was a draw

In a draw neither side wins.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

I think something

needs to be pointed out with regard to Vietnam and Korea.

The US military, in both conflicts, performed exceedingly well. It was the constraints placed upon them by the politicians that caused the "draw' in Korea and the "loss" of Vietnam, NOT the poor performance of the military itself. 

 

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

Right you are HBK, right

Right you are HBK, right you are. The TET Offensive was really an overwhelming victory by the U.S. forces. No surprise whatsoever why some think that the MSM and most Democrats in Congress are actually the " Fifth Column".

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Thanks Blazer,

right you are about TET (and countless others in Vietnam) and the "Fifth Column"(thank God we didn't let them do that again in Iraq).

I would like to point out a battle in Korea, that demonstrates our point;

Chosin Reservoir

Check out the bottom of the page, 12 Medal of Honor receipients for a "retreat". Consider that Iwo Jima had 27 in 2 months. Chosin had 12 in 15 days.

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

HK since WWII and the

HK since WWII and the propagation of the MSM, I fear there isn't a war the Dems in Congress wont' try to lose for us. Unless of course it includes bombing an Eastern European country back to the stone age for fighting a war on terror. My 2 cents anyway.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Really, you see no

Really, you see no differences?

How about these reasons why they left

1)  They couldn't afford it.

2)  They were surprised by the advanced weaponry (3 guesses were they got it)

3)  They were outmatched in training (guess who trained the Afgani rebels)

4)  Or maybe they left because of all those dirty hippies burning thier draft cards and soon to be politboro officials throwing someones medals onto the lawn of the kremlin.  Your right it was the same. The commies left because of public outcry. 

 

 

4) 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

Russian vs. U.S. Combat Deaths

Oh and Russia did not train or give equipment to the NVA?

What were the Russian Combat Deaths in Afghanistan as opposed the U.S. in Vietnam? The Russians certainly did not leave Afghanistan because of being defeated on the battlefield which is why it is a perfect comparison to Vietnam. This is why I find it ironic to use Afghanistan as some sort of example of the Russian military being ineffective.

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PT

The russians lost about 15k in ten years. so you are right, they lost a fraction of what we lost.  But they also killed over 1,000,000 civilians doing it.  It is easy to keep your casualties down if instead of fighting the rebels you just destroy they city they are in. 

 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

Again my point

Was that Russia just like the U.S. in Vietnam did not lose militarily on the battlefield. They decimated their opponent.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Again my point, We

Again my point,

We decimated our opponents,

The russians decimated their opponents, thier opponents grandparents and their opponents children .

Our code of conduct prevents us from wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.  It's step one in the soviet handbook. 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

According to Wiki, the

According to Wiki, the Soviet army lost 14 427, the KGB - 576, MIA - 28 people dead and missing

469,685 sick and wounded,

Thats over 9 yrs.

In comparison of casualities of the U.S. over 7 yrs. in Afghanistan , 361 died in hostile action and 146 in non-hostile incidents

But yea, the Russian way works better. -sarc

 

 

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Combat Deaths not casualties

Yes the Russian way works better.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT, the Russians had over

PT, the Russians had over 14,000 killed, 400,000 k wounded and you dont think thats a big deal ? Thats like the population of Baltimore or D.C. Not to mention how many of these guys were physically incapacitated for life or suffered from extreme P.T.S.D.

Remember this from fighting some simple bedouin goatherders. The Russians did kill over 1 million Afghans including women, children and the old, but I think you grossly overestimate the Russians ability to project force.

Human wave attacks went out with the Mongols and if thats what they would bring to bear against us it would be like shooting fish in a barrel, a meatgrinder.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

 The Vietnam and

 The Vietnam and Afghanistan comparison is not really relevant. We both have hindsight and this is a different world. Making oil cheaper will keep Putin at bay. Dems are Putins best friends right now.

This is a great thread

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

Oh I am well aware of the history of Vietnam

Are you?  A few Facts 1968 and after:

1968- Tet Lunar Holiday surprise offensive by the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong Guerillas was smashed by the US Military and Army of the Republic of Viet Nam, the Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered.

1971- Last of USMC combat units withdraw from Viet Nam.

1972- Most all of remaining US Military combat units withdrawn for Viet Nam.

1972- April, Easter offensive launched by North Vietnamese Army. NVA attack is decisively defeated by ARVN with massive air and naval support.

1973- Peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. Peace settlement insured no further invasions of the South by the North Vietnamese

1974-1975 US Congress defunds all support for the Republic of Viet Nam.

1975- Fall of Saigon, 30 April 1975. Republic of Viet Nam military folds under attack from NVA. Can an Army withstand attack having no funds to operate?

 

What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender!

It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!"

-General Giap, North Vietnam (memoirs)

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.

Outstanding post s_p........

Everything you stated is the truth!!  Boy, how we blew that one....... 

"If a man does his best, what else is there"?

General George S. Patton Jr.

Is Vietnam a Democracy today?

This is all nice and good but the final outcome is all that matters.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Pop Tech

Nothing "nice and good" about any of it actually. 

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.

The only terrain that is truly controlled is the terrain upon which you're standing.  Murphy's Laws of Combat

Nothing nice about failing I agree

We failed in Vietnam, it sucks I agree but propagandizing the war does not help.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Pop Tech

I think we agree on your original point but for different reasons.

 

Can our stuff smash their stuff? Undoubtedly. What next? The American people will not support a war with Russia. They don’t have the patience for an ugly war. Never have (with the exception of WW11). The American people lost the Viet Nam war, they elected the congress that lost that war. The American people were ready to give up on Iraq, until the surge. Somewhere around half still want to give up.

So we smash their stuff. What next? Russia just slinks way? Everything is just fine in a couple of months? Europe and NATO jump in and help? Boots on the ground? How many, for how long? I doubt we have that many boots. What about logistics and costs?

The American people don’t have the stomach for it.

Russia can’t afford a war, but when you are talking about their homeland they will not give up. We could end up wining the battles and losing the war.

IBD Editorials

“There isn't an area of technology we're not ahead in. Russia will spend about $31 billion this year on defense, and has planned a $189 billion, 5-year expansion. Even so, that's about what the U.S. spends in five months.”

 

The war is won by the US military until the congress (elected by the American people) loses it. So you can call all the veterans of the Viet Nam war losers if it makes you feel better but I don’t like it. I don’t care how smart you think you are.

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy's Laws of Combat

Russia is not a joke

Can our stuff smash Russia? Not remotely easily and not without heavy - heavy casualties.

Georgia has no business being a part of NATO and Russia is making that clear. This is not some aggression on the part of Russia but a warning to the West about pushing too far.

I have yet to call any Vietnam veteran a loser but I am used to people not listening to what I actual say.

Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West (The Times, UK)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

I have yet to call any Vietnam veteran a loser

“Lost the Viet Nam war” sounds like all the other media libs and other leftist I’ve heard for 40yrs. US Congress lost the Viet Nam war. (Sore spot with me)

I haven’t ‘heard’ anything you have said. On the other hand I’ve read much of what you have posted for sometime. You usually make good points, but not always. Yes Russia is very dangerous, but did you read the link in my post? Did you read my post? Do you read all of a post or just jump to a conclusion about what was written, or maybe I wasn’t clear. I was actually agreeing with much of your position but for different reasons. I was talking about their stuff (military equipment) not “Russia”.

There is a difference don’t you think.

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy's Laws of Combat

sick_puppy, I have yet to

sick_puppy, I have yet to call any Vietnam veteran a loser also, I value my teeth. It was the libs in Congress and the political generals beholden to them that lost that war for us plain and simple not our soldiers.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Blazer

Thanks Blazer.

I've had to listen to crap for years about this.

Stick up for our new vets.

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy's Laws of Combat

No thanks needed sp.

No thanks needed sp. Hopefully one day the gasbags in D.C. will realize they aren't the smartest guys in the room, when it comes to fighting wars, our guys and gals in uniform are. Wars are best fought in the field, not in the halls of Congress.

At least it looks as if we've almost won the war in Iraq, although the Dems in Congress did their best to try and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory once again.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Dude, learn some history!

Dude, learn some history! The only reason that South Vietnam lost against the SECOND invasion by the North is because we DIDN'T send in our troops to support them. If we had, South Vietnam would still exist.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

more history

actually it's worse than that:

while we were there we could have over-run the north but due to political crap we'd take a portion then retreat, take a portion-retreat, repeat, repeat, repeat.  It should have been over in 70!

"You can not support the Troops if you do not support their Mission" 

Is Vietnam a Democracy today?

Keep crying, the outcome speaks for itself.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT here's some history

Yep congersses fault yt clip 69 seconds of newt

---------------------------------------------

This is our fault too:

Is venezuela still a democracy today?

Venezuelan inflation may accelerate
to 27 percent in 2008, above the government's 19.5 percent
target,

Chavez is using a windfall from oil exports to take control
of more ``strategic'' industries this year, scaring off
investors
even as record crude prices fuel a fifth year of
economic growth in the South American country. 

 

IranianUranium

Is Vietnam a Democracy today? - answer the question

Instead you give me a video from the hypocrite.

Vietnam was a failure and we lost get over it, I have.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT, humm, CorbaMan, sick_puppy, bassndude, unsane...

have a differnt view...

South Vietnam was a democracy for a short time.. then it got wiped out .. so to answer your question...

Today: Vietnam is not a democracy. Thank x ,be to the democratic congress of the day..

bassndude said it to you here and above

Liberals62%


IranianUranium

Can't only blame dems

Gerald Ford did not send the bombers as Nixon had promised when the North broke the peace treaty.

The commies were on the run and on their last legs, but he political pressure, added with Watergate, was too much, and Nixon gave in. And, Nixon had none too kind a Congress to deal with as well.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

Ahem...

I think what people need to realize is that the "Vietnam 'War'" was not a "war".  It was a "U.N. Conflict" as was the "Korean Conflict".  It's no different than saying "it's not surgery, it's a procedure" (simpsons quote).  The only times we've lost "wars" were when the U.N. was involved labeling it a "conflict".  Nixon knew there were arms and troop buildups in Cambodia and Laos but "international law" forbade us from entering these areas.  Even when Nixon allowed the entering of these areas in a clandestine manner yielding incredible results, he was condemned.  Let us not forget that FDR was in violation of many laws, including the neutrality act, but we won and it was worth it.  Eat it.  If you get into a fight, don't trade punches evenly, hit first hit hard and don't hold back.  Don't kick them while they're down but let's remember that WWII was not won by playing by Victorian rules.  There's no such thing as fighting dirty.

CobraMan

Actually SVN didn’t need troops. What they needed was supplies and massive naval and air support. SVN kicked the NVA’s ass in their 1972 Easter invasion with our supplies and naval and air support. Our democrat controlled congress cut all support in 1975. No money, no defense.

Yes, South Viet Nam would probably still exist. With a dim congress NVN knew it could do anything it wanted.

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you. Murphy's Laws of Combat

Poptech, your ignorance

Poptech, your ignorance is baffling. How can you lose, if your not there to play? We left Vietnam in 1973. Last soldiers out, except the standard embassy marine guards, which are at all embassys. We left 2 years before the South fell. How is that losing? I mean, while we were there, the North got there butts kicked at every major engagement. An Loc was the last battle we were involved with. And that was only advisors and some LRRPS. The majority of the fighting was by SVN regulars, and SVN pilots. Russia left the Afgan areas, not with a peace agreement to be broken, but left because they lost. The enemy was on their heels so to speak. Nothing like VN.

For someone that sayes they are well aware of the history of Vietnam, you sure dont demonstrate it.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Is Vietnam a Democracy today?

Funny how desperate people are to rewrite history they would call me ignorant. I know it sucks we lost Vietnam but at least own up to it.

Please stop with the Vietnam propaganda it is getting embarrassing.

Funny I am not the one who said Russia only had T-72s - ignorance is bliss.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Pop,

The only reason the North took Saigon was because we were not there. The SVN did not have a military any where near the task of defending itself.

I also seem to recall hearing of strict order not to go into Cambodia, Laos, or move into the North during the last stages of the war. Hard to fight when you are allowed only defensive positions. 

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

Why vs. What Happened

I am well aware why we lost. Since our troops pulled out before the final collapse means we did not lose? Just like if we had pulled our troops out during WWII and Hitler took over Europe we would not have "lost" WWII - this is idiotic thinking and dangerous propaganda.

The point again is the comparison to Russia in Afghanistan, they too were never defeated on the battlefield but lost the war. The idiotic usage of this as some example of the weakness of Russia's military power is mind boggling dumb - thus the comparison to Vietnam.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Understood Pop,

And I agree with you in reagards to Russia. I don't think they are as weak as some here believe.

That being said, who here believes that any engagement with Russia would be against Russia alone? I have not seen anyone raise the question of what China or North Korea would do if we did engage. I can see a scenario where both would ally themselves with Russia, not to mention, maybe Syria?

Who is there that could be any help to us? Britain? France? GERMANY? Israel could help, but can they afford to take their eyes off of their own problems?

I sympathise with the Georgian people, but can we afford to take this beyond sanctions?

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

The Chinese couldn't afford

The Chinese couldn't afford to do it for one. Their economy is too beholden to our purchasing power, they would literally bite the hand that feeds them and commit economic suicide if they did. Historically the Chinese have never been fans of the Russians even during the Cold War when they were both Communist countries and at the same time bitter rivals due to Maoism and Stalinism.

Syria is but a gnat on a Donkeys ass, they couldn't project force outside of their small neighborhood.

Believe it or not I actually fear the D.P.R.K. fighting force more than the Russians. I once read they have the ability to rain down about 60,000 heavy artillery shells an hour within the Seoul city limits and with their proximity so close to most of urbanized South Korea not to mention they are bat-shit crazy, I believe they have the ability to be a nightmare.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Okay,

So, assuming China stays out of it. Could they do just enough to keep Japan at bay, (don't know if they could be much help anway). Could they posture just enough to deny us allies?

Syria may be blather, but they do have nukes and could kick us in the crotch by keeping Israel occupied. Iran is weak, but they too could do just enough to keep Israel's attention over there. Not to mention, all of this could keep Europe from being much help, (not that they would be right now any way).

It just seems like a double edged sword. If we don't push back, we invite more agression, and to be clear, IMO, what is going on in Georgia is as much for us as for them, and if we do, we could be in for a long slog. I believe we would win, but what is the cost-benefit right now?

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

RD if a conflageration

RD if a conflageration erupts I look for a lot of players on the Risk board to settle up on their grudges. Israel I believe would effectively shut Syria down within a week, together the U.S. and Israel could wreak havoc on both the Syrian and Iranian infrastructure and military. We would own the skies, nothing could move.Their only real threat is using the Hezzbols to fight a shadow war.

China will become a big problem if they decide to move on Taiwan, but could also tie Russia up if they decide to take territory back from them. We also have about 1 billion Allies in India who could give China and Iran a slight headache.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Hey, Blazer

they actually fought in 1969.

I think the chinese would make a grab for Siberia if we started fightin the russians. 

As for Kim's guys, yep bat sh!t 100%. It would be a bloody mess, but IF the 5th column didn't rear it's ugly head, we'd win. 

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

PT, I gotta

hand it to ya, replying to what, like 8 different people on this topic, damn! But I'm at a loss, why no classic PT list? :-}

Anyway my .5 cents worth:

On the one hand Russia and here.       

On the other the USA , and here , and here.

Looks like the USA is ahead of the Russians everywhere that counts, EXCEPT WMDs. It still looks like MAD if we went down that road. 

We, being the USA, would win a conventional war with the Russians. I think the facts speak for themselves. However, it would be incredibly bloody (for BOTH sides) and could quite possibly lead to a nuclear exchange. The russian psyche is different than ours and if only one tactical nuc was used our doctrine for retaliation could lead to escalation rather quickly and good-bye world. The Joint Chiefs know this and thats why, barring an invasion of Poland, (which as was pointed out is NOT gonna happen) no war with Russia. Thank God for that.

I also want to point out this site for, IMHO, the best military information.

 

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

HBK,

Pop agrees with you as far as not opening that can of worms. It would be hard and bloody. What he is taking issue with is the small number of posters here who have said engagement with Russia would be easy. I don't think he thinks Georgia is worth getting to riled about at this point, and my sympathies for the Georgian people aside, I tend to agree with him on that count.

I do wonder though, do we invite further agression if we do too little?

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

Rest 1,

I agree with both of you about not gettin involved. Sorry Georgia, but you ain't worth it. That's the real world. It's a bit@h, but so's life sometimes. 

As for further aggression, I might as well bring the heat down on me, I think we helped provoked this whole thing. Puttin the anti missle system, like 600 miles from Moscow? What did we think the Russians were gonna do?  Consider the Ukraine for full Nato membership? Again, what did we think the russians were gonna do? There's a little thing called sphere's of influence that takes place in the real world and we are messin with the Russians. Just look at the uproar over here when the Russians said they were gonna put bombers back in Cuba, and are gonna supply Chavez with weapons. We went ape sh!t. How dare them do some stuff like that. Um, well isn't that what we are doin over there in their neck of the woods, messin with their sphere of influence? 

Having said all that, I think we have checked their aggression for now. The bold declaration from Condi about our friendship with Poland, essentially drew the line for the Russians. So no more aggression; for now. Unfortunately, I got the feelin that there is gonna be an upswing in Cold War-esque proxy "wars" on the horizon.  

 

The realities of global power posturing are not pleasant. 

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

I think we had to see this

I think we had to see this coming, from the day Putin was elected. I mean he IS ex-KGB is he not? It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a few of the other former Soviet states "reclaimed" in the not to distant future.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

Pop Tech

“troops pulled out before the final collapse”

US ground troops out 1972, fall of Siagon 1975. Three years (and one repulsed invasion) is pulling out before the final collapse? This makes sense to you? Really??? You don’t think your stretching do you?

“troops out during WWII”. huh? This is an example?

"propaganda"  Do you think I've been lying to you about this issue?

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy's Laws of Combat

Pop, you can twist it any

Pop, you can twist it any way you want to. The facts are....

1. Vietnam fell 2 years after a peace agreement.

2. The T-72 is the primary battle tank of Russia.

Screw it around anyway you wish. The fact is the T-90 and T-90S are low in numbers. The T-94 and T-95's seem to have ecnomic, among other, problems. None of these tanks are in the same class as the M1, or the British Challenger2, with the exception of maybe the T-95. Not in armor or fire control systems, and above all else, professional personel.

Even Russia knows they would fall before and American army. They have a poorly trained military. Moral is only moderate. Motivation is low.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Propaganda about Vietnam and Russia

I'm spinning it? We lost Vietnam, it was an utter failure. Vietnam is not a Democracy as a result. We retreated and LOST THE WAR. Your denial about history is not my problem but you really need to stop the propaganda.

Russia has 150 T-90s, 4500 T-80s in addition to 9700 T-72s. Having a larger number of one tank does not make it their "primary" tank.

That is a hell of a lot of tanks to deal with.  

Armor is irrelevant as Russian systems can punch through ours. 

"Professional Personnel" is all speculative and is no way to determine their actual training and ability which is all that matters. Ruthless well-trained personnel is just as deadly. "Professionalism" is something we hype but it means little in combat, training and actual ability is all that matters. Are the enemy capable of killing and destroying effectively are my concerns when fighting an enemy not how well they salute their officers.

The Russians rolled over the Georgians who were equiped and trained by us. Not exactly a vote of confidence in our system.

Maybe this sort of stuff sells to rally soldiers who do not think much to fight an enemy but it doesn't work with me. 

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Poop Deck

 

First of all, I have no issue with you about the Russia/Georgia/USA issue. IMO we have no military solution to the Georgia mess. We may have political and economic responses. I have no expertise on the military equipment being discussed, so I have nothing to add about that but, breaking down your arguments on Viet Nam makes me question your arguments on other issues.

Poop……, Poop….., Poop…., where to begin? You certainly are an annoying and strange creature. Your hundreds or even thousands of posts and links on global warning have been interesting and helpful. You look to be able to collect a lot of data and connect the dots to get the big picture, but you seem to ignore inconvenient facts and exaggerate or make up facts. In the end missing dots or wrong dots leave you short of a full deck, er…….picture.

 

Poop Deck says:   “Oh I am well aware of the history of Vietnam”

 

Sick-puppy responds,

Oh I am well aware of the history of Vietnam August 22, 2008 - 23:17 ET by sick_puppy

Are you? A few Facts 1968 and after:

1968- Tet Lunar Holiday surprise offensive by the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong Guerillas was smashed by the US Military and Army of the Republic of Viet Nam, the Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered.

1971- Last of USMC combat units withdraw from Viet Nam.

1972- Most all of remaining US Military combat units withdrawn for Viet Nam.

1972- April, Easter offensive launched by North Vietnamese Army. NVA attack is decisively defeated by ARVN with massive air and naval support.

1973- Peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. Peace settlement insured no further invasions of the South by the North Vietnamese

1974-1975 US Congress defunds all support for the Republic of Viet Nam.

1975- Fall of Saigon, 30 April 1975. Republic of Viet Nam military folds under attack from NVA. Can an Army withstand attack having no funds to operate?

"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender!"

"It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!"

-General Giap,   North Vietnam (memoirs)

 

Poop says,

Why vs. What Happened    August 24, 2008 - 01:49 ET by PopularTech

I am well aware why we lost. Since our troops pulled out before the final collapse means we did not lose? Just like if we had pulled our troops out during WWII and Hitler took over Europe we would not have "lost" WWII - this is idiotic thinking and dangerous propaganda.

 

Sick-puppy responds,

Pop Tech August 24, 2008 - 02:36 ET by sick_puppy

“troops pulled out before the final collapse”

US ground troops out 1972, fall of Siagon 1975. Three years (and one repulsed invasion) is pulling out before the final collapse? This makes sense to you? Really??? You don’t think your stretching do you?

 

Poop says,

Propaganda about Vietnam and Russia August 25, 2008 - 08:53 ET by PopularTech

I'm spinning it? We lost Vietnam, it was an utter failure. Vietnam is not a Democracy as a result. We retreated and LOST THE WAR. Your denial about history is not my problem but you really need to stop the propaganda.

"Professionalism" is something we hype but it means little in combat, training and actual ability is all that matters.

Maybe this sort of stuff sells to rally soldiers who do not think much to fight an enemy but it doesn't work with me.

 

Response to Poop Deck:

“We retreated” We retreated in Viet Nam? Really? When did this happen?

“propaganda” This propaganda is where?

“but it means little in combat” Your combat experience is what?

“The Russians rolled over the Georgians who were equiped and trained by us.” Ever heard of overwhelming force?

“soldiers who do not think much “ Soldiers don’t think much? So, your saying soldiers are idiots?

We are unworthy. We have Poop Deck the Magnificent the all seeing, the all knowing to lead us, to show us the light.

Your comments are gratuitous and insulting. They add nothing to your comments, and I doubt they sway anyone to your position.

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy’s Laws of Combat

Obviously we won Vietnam it was a huge Victory! Go USA!

Obviously I am completely delusional and we won Vietnam. What a victory for the USA!!!

Propaganda - all in my mind since we won Vietnam! Go USA!

Professionalism - does the "professionalism" of a soldier determine their lethality? My point is not that being professional is a bad thing but does not being professional make the Russians any less dangerous?

But the Russians are a joke! How could they roll over anybody? So tell me what is the point of arming their soldiers and training them? To waste money because they is about what it looks like.

If a soldier buys everything they are told without question... what can I say? I am saying I am not one to take orders without question but that is me. Thus the spin Vietnam into something that is wasn't.

Sorry if I don't help propagandize our "Victory" in Vietnam. Sorry if this hurts people's feelings but I am not going to do it. You can take it for what it is worth or spin it into things I never said.

I fail to see how my comments get twisted into some anti-Vietnam veteran nonsense. Vietnam is too personal for some understandibly but it does not excuse the knee jerk reactionary comments.

Please tell me what facts I made up.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Please tell me what facts I made up.

 You answer none of the questions asked about your post, then you ask what facts you made up? I didn’t notice any facts, all I saw were inflammatory comments about things that obviously you have no experience with.

I doubt you read my post to start with. If you did you didn’t comprehend, or else you are very obtuse. My impression is you are very young, at least I hope you are, given you reasoning skills.

 We are unworthy. We have Poop Deck the Magnificent the all seeing, the all knowing to lead us, to show us the light.

Oh, you can’t hurt my feelings.

REMFs are everywhere.   Murphy's Laws of Combat

 

Sin Loy.  

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.   Murphy’s Laws of Combat

Yep, I can hear the Ruskies

Yep, I can hear the Ruskies now (to quote oh Slim), "American military is joke, we have... they have...". There's a reason why arm-chair generals are not in charge of our forces. Don't get me wrong. I'm a red-blooded, apple pie lovin', anti-socialist, anti-communist, military veteran of these United States, but I know that a war with Russia is NOT going to be the walk-in-the-park scenario that some posting here seem to indicate. The Russian government has their trigger finger on a lot of weapons of mass destruction and if you think we have the ability to shoot down all 6681 strategic nukes before any of them reach our shores, think again.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31

Im not sure we are

Im not sure we are advocating all out war and I beleive the Ruskies will back down as long as we dont send in troops.  Bottom line is they want to be the world power they once were and if we appease them they will be.  No one is saying it will be a walk in the park but if you look at history say 1938 Germany, 1979 Iran just to name 2, you will see the benefit of a strong offense at the right time.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

The Russian Military is not a joke

This is absolutely delusional. Stealth doesn't mean invulnerable or invisible and the Russians have excellent aircraft.

Your are not being cocky you are being naive.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Cant hit em if ya cant see

Cant hit em if ya cant see em, Pop.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Stealth planes can get shot down

Stealth planes can get shot down

The Serbs simply modified a Soviet-made SA-3 Goa surface-to-air missile and was able to down it on a moonless night.

I am I the only one who knows this stuff?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

I am I the only one who

I am I the only one who knows this stuff? No, Pop, just the only one unaware of improvements made sense then.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

And Russia has made no improvements?

And Russia has made no improvements?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

YesThey have probably

Yes

They have probably repainted some of their tanks by now.

Let me ask you this,

How far do you think they have advanced compared to us?

 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

The RPG-29 was developed in the 80s and it can take an M1

If the Russians developed an RPG-29 that can take out reactive armor in the 80s, why would they need an advanced version? But I will err on the side of reality and suggest they have advanced the technology since then.

Call me crazy for suggesting they might have done more then paint their tanks. When this conversation was started I was told they only had T-72s which is not true.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

(Most) planes must stil be flown

PopTech, the Russians may have plenty of Flankers and Fulcrums, but their pilot training still lags behind the United States.  I would be willing to bet their guys don't get near the stick time our guys do.  And if they have stuck to the same doctrine of being strictly controlled from the ground, instead of the tried and true American one of "centralized control/decentralized execution", I'd call their air force further into question. 

Pilot training matters.  One of the reasons the Nazi Luftwaffe faltered was because they did not believe in using their best pilots to train others.  They never bothered with a training program.  They were rolling out great and in many cases superior aircraft, but this mattered not because their aircrews sucked.   

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing gt thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for themedal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Evidence?

You have evidence their pilots suck and are poorly trained?

Didn't Hitler devote more of Germany's resources to ground forces and didn't they have a problem of limited resources, noticeably aviation fuel? Advanced fighters are of no use if you cannot fly them.

Oh and didn't Germany get beat by the "inferior" and poorly trained Russian Army?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

More on flying

Ask any pilot in the Air Force about how the lack of stick time degrades your skills. 

From what I have read, Russia's pilots have lacked the stick time of other nation's counterparts over the years.  If I can procure the reading material (I am still unpacking as we speak), I will cheerfully quote it.

John Keegan, IIRC, made a good argument that Germany had no business kicking off WWII to begin with due to its limited resources.  That being said, they could have developed a seasoned, highly trained pilot corps by taking its aces and most hardened survivors and putting them into pilot schools as instructors.  This is what the United States did and has done and you see what that has done for our Air Force, as well as those in the other services.  The Germans by contrast had them all fly until they died.  When they got shot down, they lost more than a Messerschmitt.  They also lost perhaps the most valuable resource of all - human capital in the form of an experienced veteran pilot.    

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing gt thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for themedal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Russian Pilot Skill is all speculative

Things like this we have no real way of knowing and I think it is dangerous to base decisions off unknowns.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

No complacency here

Please note that you are talking to one who is hardly cocky but WILL call a spade a spade.  If you think I am complacent you are barking up the wrong tree.

After all, we have our own concerns.  My biggest?  Sustainment.  Something I am working out in my head as I work at unpacking...

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Not to mention Unsane in

Not to mention Unsane in the recent conflict in Georgia it is estimated the Russians lost around 400 men, over 40 tanks, 30 + light armored vehicles and 12 fighter aircraft. Also reports claim most Russian bombs missed their intended targets. No wonder they stuck around longer to mess things up in Georgia, they were pissed.

Now our guys dont' miss with their bombs just sayin' and in a ground war speed agility and being on target is crucial. If the reports are true the Russians suffered a staggering toll , for their little walk in the park in Georgia. 

Inferior weaponry aside, they seem to me to be poorly trained and an un- disciplined fighting force. We would decimate and obliterate a force like that.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Control does not mean command performance

"they are still in control of about half of the strategic nuclear weapons that exist on the planet in addition to a massive amount of chemical weapons, hence their boldness and the world's caution."

Control does not mean command performance. When it comes to actually using thier weapons in a war with America, Russia doesn't stand a chance.

You have to remember that we have AMERICANS in Russia right now who are assisting them in destroying their chemical weapon stocks. We've also assisted them in the recent past in destroying the launch vehicles (both intercontinental and mid-range missiles) which carry nuclear and chemical warheads.

It's reasonable to believe that we know where Russia keeps all of those weapons and that, if Russia becomes too aggressive, we can destroy all of them in a matter of hours at the most. If Russia did try to launch any WMD, they'd be destroyed within their airspace and most of Russia would be a chemical and nuclear wasteland faster than their government could say "Oh Sh(KABOOM)!"

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Not a Chance

Putin is not stupid, he has weapons well hidden.

Our track record on WMD locations in rogue states with limited resources is not very promising, I would not push our luck with former super-powers.

I do not nor have seen any remote evidence that we could destroy all of their WMDs in a matter of hours.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

We're also not stupid.

"Putin is not stupid, he has weapons well hidden."

We're also not stupid. A hidden weapon can not be used effectively, if at all. And fixed launching systems are difficult to hide. If Putin even started to PREP his military for an attack against US forces, we'd notice it right away and respond accordingly. Why do you think we have all that reconnaissance technology available? It’s not to look at pretty Russian ladies. It's to spot an advancing military force and DESTROY it before it can become a major threat to our troops. How long would Russian military equipment and troops last after being spotted by an UAV like a predator or global hawk, let alone our real-time optical and radar satellites and AWAC‘s? Not very long.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Not impressed with our "Reconnaissance"

It has not been effective at detecting IEDs, Osama, Iraq WMDs. Excuse me why I believe the Russians can do things without us knowing.

UAVs are not going to last against Russian air-defenses and aircraft, again this is not Iraq.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

I'll agree with that

"Our track record on WMD locations in rogue states with limited resources is not very promising"

I'll agree with that. It's very difficult to find WMD's that are never deployed on a field of battle or do not exist. But, if a weapon is not deployed, what good is it? Putin can keep them hidden as long as he wants, they won't be a threat to us, correct?

"I do not nor have seen any remote evidence that we could destroy all of their WMDs in a matter of hours."

That's because you're not looking vey hard, if at all. Over 45,000 American nuclear warheads say differently. You can throw in our allies warheads as well as I’m sure THEY don’t want Russia to start tossing around WMD’s ether.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Laughing my ass off

We couldn't find WMDs in a third world country that we had daily overflight of but we are damn sure where all the WMDs are in Russia! Excuse me while I laugh my ass off.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

The best tank the Russian's have is a T-90 not a T-72

Russian Army Equipment

They have 4500 T-80 (all variants) tanks and 150 T-90s, in addition to the 9700 T-72s.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

the T-90, for all its up

the T-90, for all its up grades, is not up to the M1. The M1's systems are better. The T-90 has a first generation fire control system, not as good or as accurate as the M1. Tho it can fire a guided missle out to 5000 meters, it is mainly for low, slow flying air craft. Most battle fields are 2 to 4km. So the missle is discounted except when there is air craft in the area.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Pop Tech, who cares what age the tanks are,

This blu-108 can be delivered by cruse missile, drone, plane ,sub, Ship....USS Taylor (is in the Black sea NOW).

Liberals62%


IranianUranium

PT, ruskies invasion of Georgia, was mainly tanks, & trucks

blu 108,   is the perfect choice to wipe them out.

As with all weapons, a countermeasure is figgered out, sooner or later.

Yes the ruskies have missiles, I'm sure the russian systems are updated by our desire to keep the international space station, supplied with toilet paper.

Liberals62%


IranianUranium

Russians Air Defense Systems?

Why would the Russians deploy Air Defense systems when attacking a target that has no air power? What the Russians attacked Georgia with is irrelevant to what the Russians actually have.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Russian Air Defences Suck!

Russia supplied Slobodan Milosevic with their top-of-the-line air defense systems. How well did that work for Milosevic? You could ask him, but he died in captivity, didn't he?

When will people learn not to underestimate American air power?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

The same systems that shot down a "Stealth Fighter"?

So Serbia was supplied with the absolute most advanced Russian air defense systems? And Serbia had the equivalent of the Russian Air Force? I don't think so!

Why are all comparisons to modern Russian tech made to the U.S. vs. some third world country buying surplus Soviet tech?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT, your right, sort of?

 

What makes you think that this "third" party comparison IS NOT what has kept the Russians at bay, when in fact that IS the reason. This is a test, the Russians are checking what the rest of the world thinks, then they will just creep, creep and creep, until some one shows some courage. That is how cowards always do things, they lie.

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

More Complex then that

Where is all this rhetoric coming from?

The whole situation is much more complex then simply Russia trying to take over a former soviet satellite. South Ossetia does not want to be a part of Georgia and have considered themselves independent from Georgia since the Soviet Union collapsed. If they want to be part of Russia or independent let them, I fail to see how allowing Georgia to use military force to keep a group that wants nothing to do with them is spreading democracy.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Yes, they did

"So Serbia was supplied with the absolute most advanced Russian air defense systems?"

Yes, at the time they were Russia's most advanced systems.

"And Serbia had the equivalent of the Russian Air Force?"

What does having, or not have, an active air force have to do with ground-based air defense systems? You need to realize that air defense systems defend against OPPOSING air forces, not your own. They are used to protect more than air bases; they protect all military targets.

In regards to Russian air power. We have aircraft in our inventory that can track, engage, and destroy any an all opposing aircraft before those pilots are even aware that they are being targeted. Russia's air force doesn't stand a change against ours.

"I don't think so!"

Then you should reassess your conclusions.

"Why are all comparisons to modern Russian tech made to the U.S. vs. some third world country buying surplus Soviet tech?"

Serbia was hardly "some third world country." They were the technological and financial leaders of the Balkan area. Russia was an ally of Serbia and they wanted to protect a valuable ally. They didn't supply them with "surplus Soviet tech" as you put it; they supplied them with the best that they had. They lost.

In regards to what Russia has, or may have, developed since then, we haven’t been idle at developing our own advanced weaponry. For example, we now have weapons that can strike a 1 meter square area, anywhere in the world. We can even put a bomb through your front door if we wish. We also have aircraft that can release those weapons over any airspace in the world and no one would know what was happening until the weapons detonated, if even that quickly.

You really think that Russia can defend itself from this kind of military might?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Evidence of this?

I want to see evidence that they were given the most advanced air-defense systems the Russians had.

Having your own air force is part of an air-defense system!

I'm sure Russia is just shaking at our military might being bogged down in Iraq for 5 years.

It is nice to glamorize the U.S. militaries capabilities beyond what they are. We have an excellent advanced military but to hear some of the ridiculous comments people are making here is just laughable.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Don't underestime our military

"I want to see evidence that they were given the most advanced air-defense systems the Russians had."

First, I want to see evidence that this" third world country" was supplied with "surplus Soviet tech." Two can play at that game.

"I'm sure Russia is just shaking at our military might being bogged down in Iraq for 5 years."

Bogged down? What the hell are you talking about? We have won every engagement that we’ve faced in Iraq. Think about it! Our troops have been doing a fantasist job. No force that has opposed them has be victorious on the battle field. How DARE you belittle the troops by claiming that they are not effective!

"Having your own air force is part of an air-defense system!"

No kidding! But that doesn’t really answer my question, does it? An air force is only a small part of an air defense system. The majority of air defense systems are radar instillations, communication stations, command and control structures, and ground based defensive weaponry like SAM‘s. We have weaponry that can make a coordinated strike against each and every aspect of another’s country's air defense system, including a strike against both grounded and airborne aircraft. This coordinated strike can, and has, completely disable an enemy’s air defense system quickly and decisively. Nothing the Russians have can withstand that capability., NOTHING!

"It is nice to glamorize the U.S. militaries capabilities beyond what they are."

For someone who has named yourself "Popular Tech," you sure don't know much about our technology. Are you denying that we have the weapon systems that I described? Do you doubt that aircraft such as the stealth bombers and self-guided weaponry like the JDAM exists? Do you doubt that aircraft like the F-16 can track multiple targets and strike them over the horizon, long before the enemy is even aware that we have aircraft shooting at them? Perhaps you should ask the people who’ve been on the receiving end of such weapons if they exist or not. I'm sure they could straighten you out.

Let me give you some advice: NEVER underestimate our military. Everyone who has done this since the 80's has been sorry. That's NOT a glamorization, that's a fact!

You seem to continually discount and discredit our military and it's capabilities. I doubt that Russia would do the same. They’re not that stupid.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Iraq should have been over the first year

If we sent in the proper amount of forces from day one and did not give our forces ridiculous rules of engagement Iraq would have been over 4 years ago. Yes we were bogged down for 5 years.

How dare I not lie about what was really going on!

The Serbian air force is absolutely irrelevant to the Russians.

We have never actually fought directly against the most advanced Russian air-defense systems.

I've seen our tech in action get bogged down in Iraq for 5 years - yawn.

Never underestimate Russia, everyone has throughout history and lost.

I seem to actually understand our capabilities and the Russians and don't have this juvenile comic book image of our military.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You're not ver bright

You're not very bright. You can't even tell the difference between an insurgency and an invasion. We disabled Saddam's military and tossed out his government within a matter of weeks, not years. Any and all combat operations after that was support of an allied government against an internal threat which consists of small, mobile attack units that doesn't differentiate between civilians and military personnel, correct? These are the most difficult battles to fight as those enemy troops are hiding within the civilian population and we are trying to minimize civilian casualties. This type of operation is always going to take a long time to complete, unless you think it's proper to level entire cities in order to destroy a few enemy squads. If we DID perform combat operation in this manner, massive attacks on civilian population centers in order to destroy a few enemy troops, the war would have ended years ago, as would the majority of the Iraqi population.

Slow and steady is better for fighting an insurgency than quick and deadly, wouldn’t you agree? So much for being "bogged down."

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Obviously I don't know what I am talking about

We have the most advancd military in the world that will crush Russia in minutes with shock and awe and super high tech UAVs blah, blah, blah yet it takes 5 years to stop some insurgents with Russian made equipment.

I think it is proper to send in an overwhelming, ridiculously sized force from day one and to respond with whatever force is necessary to supress the enemy, not dick around and have our troops get shot at and blown up until we finally get a real general to take command. That is what you get when Donald Dumbsfeld is in charge.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT

I have to say, I was an on-the-fence believer of Rumsfeld during his tenure, giving him the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time. But after he exited and Patreaus came in and swiftly turned things around, getting all the chaos under control and bringing amazing stability to Iraq, in hindsight Donny does sort of look like he was a real doofus on the job.

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

Cobra

I have to side with Cobra here. This was guerilla warfare, which many feared would happen after we went in, so maybe we should have been more prepared for this element of combat. But still, totally unconventional guerilla-style tactics from civilian-clothed combatants is hard to deal with.

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

Tell that to the Afghani's

"Never underestimate Russia, everyone has throughout history and lost."

Tell that to the Afghani's.

Dude, you REALLY need to study history. Do you really believe that Russia was invincible in the past and that, because of this, they’re STILL invincible today? Well, here’s a little history for you to consider:

The Soviet Union ( you know, RUSSIA) would have LOST WWII if it had not been for American assistance. Who do you think put all that pressure on Germany in Africa which forced them to divide their military on two fronts? Who do you think supplied Stalin with the food, equipment, training, and finances which gave them the time to create the infrastructure that was necessary to defend the Soviets from Hitler’s invasion? The answer to both those questions is AMERICA!

Face it, buddy, without our support in WWII, The Motherland would have been part of the Fatherland within a year. So much for the "invincibility" of Mother Russia.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Seemingly vs. Actual Understanding

"I seem to actually understand our capabilities and the Russians"

You ACTUALLY don't understand anything at all. You're glorifying the Russians and their military abilities and that's not understanding, that's worshiping.

Unlike you, I don't "seem" to understand what combat with the Russians would be like, I KNOW! You see, I'm a Cold War Veteran, I TRAINED to fight the Russians in Europe and on their own territory. I KNOW what our capabilities are and how the Russians would fair against out military as I took part in training exercises (ever hear of REFORGER?) and I observed the Russians as they performed their own, as did most Cold War Veterans. Not much has changed in our tactics since then (other than vastly improving our weaponry), but a whole hell of a lot has changed FOR THE WORSE in Russia, which is something that you can‘t deny. Experience is a far better teacher than Google.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

All your training and no research

Apparently when they gave you all that training they failed to show you how to do research but then again I meet many people who just like to exaggerate things.

I realize people like you hate the internet since it prevents you from spreading your BS, you actually have to back up what you say.

I don't remotely worship Russia, I just look at the facts and not your exaggerations and distortions.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

All your training and no research

Apparently when they gave you all that training they failed to show you how to do research but then again I meet many people who just like to exaggerate things.

I realize people like you hate the Internet since it prevents you from spreading your BS, you actually have to back up what you say.

I don't remotely worship Russia, I just look at the facts and not your exaggerations and distortions.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

This is evidence

Here's a good example of your "surplus Soviet tech" and how well Russian air defense systems would fair against an attack:

"The Nato attack began with both sea- and air-launched cruise missiles. Many of them were aimed at the Serbs' air defence system, which includes up to 1,000 Russian-designed surface-to-air missiles with advanced guidance systems."

Source

 

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

The Serbians did NOT have the latest Russian Air Defenses

Just like I thought, they did not have the latest air-defenses and effectively had "surplus". The Russians may have helped upgrade their dated systems but that is not the same as having the latest and greatest from Russia.

Using Serbia as a measurement of Russia's actual air-defenses is laughable.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You lost the argument, admit it.

You lost the argument, admit it.  That was NOT "surplus" equipment, that equipment was the best available at the time.  You even admitted to as much when you pointed out that one of our stealth fighters was shot down!

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

What a liar!

I just linked to evidence proving that they did NOT have the latest equipment, the Russians were trying to help them upgrade it. Why are you now resorting to lying? Maybe because you lost the argument.

I admitted that they used a 1960s era SAM to shoot down a stealth fighter, dumbass!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT, how many stealth sorties were flown over Yugoland ?

Durning the NATO war?

Over 1,000 aircraft, maybe 50 were stealth? 

About 38,000 missions.. ONLY ONE stealth lost.

That would be called a LUCKY SHOT; not 60's technology.

(Tho' we did go the moon on 60's technology.)

Yugoland did not have radar in 1999 that could be used to track and shoot down 117 's.. 

If they did ;we lose all of our 117's because they are subsonic, sitting ducks.

That's just a minor point.

THE SCORE this thread.

CobraMan 1

Popular Tech 0

Don't take it personally.

 

 

 

Liberals62%


IranianUranium

Was a Stealth Fighter shot down with a 1960's SA-6? Yes

Yes and they tracked it using Radar (old radar) - so much for "Stealth".

"...the F-117A was tracked
by an old Soviet radar - a mid-1950s radar operating in 165-190cm wavelength range
."

One lost stealth is enough to disprove the magic and no it was not random AAA like your link, it was a radar guided SAM.

Poptech 50

CobraMan -1000

Looks like you are wrong again!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Lucky shot PT ? I mean

Lucky shot PT ? I mean we've only been using the Stealths now for twenty yrs., and only one has ever been shot down and that was ten yrs. ago, so I'm sure by your logic we also must have learned from our mistakes and made vast technological improvements to that platform

. The Russkies once shot down a U-2 flying at over 80,000 feet in the sixties, after thousands of missions inside Soviet territory. Sooner or later you shoot enough and your bound to get lucky once in a blue moon.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Nothing lucky about it

Stealth is not what it is hyped and has its disadvantages, once you learn them and adapt you can bring them down. You bet your ass Russia is aware of their limitations. Just like we have adapted so have the Russians.

The U2 was shot down because Soviet SAMs could bring it down. It had nothing to do with "luck".

The F-117 has been retired BTW.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Stealth

No one, not even its creators have given stealth the infallibility of the Titanic.  They've said that the stealth tech that we have gives the plane a "radar signature of a basketball" which is far smaller than most can boast.  It's not a fail-safe technology.  One was shot down in the Balkans for that matter.  You can't ignore that it's better than what 99% of everyone else has.  There's no such thing as a fail-safe technology, but let's compare it to the M-1 Abrams tank.  Let's look at its ability to strike true and come home in one piece.  Statistically, it's a very safe bet. 

Keep moving that goalpost

I noticed that you tend to "move the goalpost," as they say, when you're losing an argument. You went from describing Serbia as a "third world country" which was supplied with "surplus Soviet" equipment to demanding that I provided evidence that the Serbs were supplied with "the absolute best" Russian equipment available while avoiding completely the actual technological and financial status of Serbia during that war. When I provided evidence you that they had ADVANCED weapons which was counter to your claim that they were supplied with “surplus Soviet“ technology, you ignore that evidence and describe their advanced weaponry as "effectively " surplus. What’s next, "almost effective surplus" equipment of a "second world" country?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

SA-6's were invented in the 60s!

They were effectively a third world country with surplus SAMs. You didn't provide evidence of what I asked for I had to look it up.

"Reports of the deployment of the modern SA-10 air defense missile remain unconfirmed."

Go look up when the SA-6 was invented. The Russians tried to help them upgrade their systems (which were last upgraded in the 70s) but that is not the same as comparing them to what the Russians had deployed.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Bass: Equipment asidein

Bass:

Equipment asidein which I largely agree with you, the thing I wish to leave you with is the personnel involved:

If you look at any photo coming out of Iraq and Afghansitan that shows US troops  on operations, you see well equipped soldiery moving professionally.

Compare that to the photos coming out of Georgia in which we see Russians mostly lounging about on top of tanks and BMP's in various stages of undress. Few are wearing any helmets, nor are their personal weapons oriented in a threatening manner.  While the US troops are providing 360 degree security, the Russians seem to be preoccuppied with not getting off the vehicles which are lined up ducks in a row along the road.

Essentially, the US troops are professionals, their Russian conscript contemporaries are still unmotivated draftees with nomial training.

BD, you are absolutely

BD, you are absolutely correct. I would stack up a squad of our soldiers to a platoon of the Russians any day. Our guys out there are professional and very good at what they do. Better trained, motivated and equiped. The Russians sit in the open catching some rays on there BMP.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Apologies to BD

BD - Sheesh, if I had read your post before I wrote mine concerning personnel issues further above, I would have shut up.  :-)

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing gt thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for themedal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Not a problem. Have you

Not a problem.

Have you noticed that guys like J Frank Wilson et al have stopped popping up with tales of woe from Iraq?

damn, I have not posted in so long due to their absence...

 

Cue the crickets

'Tis true, BD.  What are the Internet equivalents of crickets chirping I wonder? 

I have been hearing that in LOTS of places concerning Iraq these days...

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

It ain't the size

We're the largest. So what? The size of the military only matters if all conditions are equal. Conditions, as we know, are almost never equal. There are too many variables. That's why an insurgent guerilla force can hold us at a stalemate, even if we're a hundred times larger. Size means little. Circumstances mean much more.

You can't take military response off the table. If you refuse to use your military, Russia will use theirs, no matter what else you do. The other responses will then be useless. The only thing that resists a military action is the threat of military action in return. You cannot remove that threat, otherwise the Russians will exploit that refusal.

  • However, Georgia is a special case. Right now the Russian military is essentially fighting in its own backyard. They'd have no supply problems, or logistical holdups. Their opposition was fairly weak to begin with. And they must have gambled that they could portray Georgia as the bad guy.
  • That's probably why they were willing to invade: it was only across the street, and they could cause enough hesitation in the rest of the world to buy them time.
  • That said, for the same reasons, they're not going to fight anywhere else. They won't invade the Ukraine or Poland, because those conditions are much different. They can't portray Poland or the Ukraine as bad guys. Neither is weak, especially Poland, who's already covered by NATO.

This is as far as the Russians can go. They ain't going anywhere else. The only real question is whether we should use the military to eject them from Georgia, and there really isn't much of a desire for that. So it has nothing to do with the size of the Russian military or their nukes, because they're not going to use them anyway. The circumstances are what dictates the response, not the bragging boasts about military size.

KC, Russia has a larger

KC, Russia has a larger military force than the US. But the US is the more powerful. Russia attacked a force of 32000, (the size of Georgias military) with a force of 90,000. Tanks outnumbered Georgian tanks by more than 50 to 1. Russia is moving to take the oil of Georgia. Its like the big rancher and the homesteader, and the rancher wants the homesteaders land and goods.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Good point

bass, I'd be lying if I claimed to know what was really going on. Right now, all I have to go on is what the media reports, and I doubt they understand it, so I'm purely guessing.

However, having freely admitted my ignorance ... Suppose Russia really is going after the oil. Maybe they are trying to control the pipeline ...

First thing I would do is show up (with flowers) at Maliki's door in Baghdad. Have them hold an Iraqi meeting with representatives from the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds. Here's what I'd say to them:

"Look, fellas, have we got a deal for you. See those Russians controlling the pipeline? That creates a hole in the oil market which you can fill. The west won't want to use the Russian pipeline if they have any alternative, because who wants to feed the Bear? We certainly don't. The Europeans may be compete weasels, but even they're not stupid enough to give the Russians oil money if they don't have to. The Chinese don't like them any more than we do, and they'll probably go along. That means you've got a golden opportunity here. 

All you have to do is

  1. Keep the peace.
  2. Develop those fields.
  3. Give us a fair price.

If you take the deal, you're going to be rolling in cash. And, if we keep a minimal force here, the Russians wouldn't dare invade. The Russian pipeline will bring them enough money to keep them placated, but it'll be the perfect balance for you. You'll all be stinking rich.

If you reject this offer, I'm sorry, the Russians may come looking for you, and we'll be conveniently unavailable to defend you. We're telling you upfront. It's a great carrot, and a nasty stick. Whaddaya say?"

Iraq may turn out to be a nice card to play in this game. Yeah, I know, it's pure speculation. So what?

wow PopTech

I cannot believe people here are saying it would be easy for us to beat Russia. Putin would just accept the loss and go on somewhere else, and none of their allies would feel the need to get involved.

Details over tanks and ships cannot be taken lightly when the nuclear option is close at hand. Not to mention how Iran, China, and Venezuela would respond. It would make Iraq look like a mild city protest.

As much as I want us to do something about Georgia, direct confrontation with Russia needs to be a last resort.

Candance, while I do not

Candance, while I do not think war is a good thing, and do not wish for war, I have to say, there are some people in this world that only understand the language of violence. To get your point across to them, you must learn to speak the same language. Russia will not launch nukes, because they dont want nukes launched at them. They know that is a no win situation.

Personaly, I think we should have confronted them in the 70's. We are going to have to fight them sooner or later. May as well be while our troops have the upper hand.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

well bass

I absolutely agree that confrontation with Russia will eventually happen, but at the moment I don't think it's smart.

Why wait?

Do you think that Russia will get weaker as time goes by. Especially selling their oil at $100+ per barrel when it costs them about $20 to drill it and ship it?

Yeah, lets wait until they annex Georgia, update all their military equipment and dig in. Maybe we'll be ready when they move on Ukraine or maybe Poland.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

Russia is going to attack Poland now?

Is that a joke? Where is all of this hysterics coming from?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

"Russia is going to attack

"Russia is going to attack Poland now?"

I hope not. That would be an invasion of a heck of a lot of beautiful women. Military invasion, I mean :p

Same goes for the Ukraine. I've dated lasses from both countries. Not the warmest or fuzziest types of people, but they sure crank out beauties.

Yes, these countries need missile defenses planted in their backyards, I say! 

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

C5.... Exactly. I have

C5....

Exactly.

I have posted this link for a couple of days and I don't think anybody paid any attention to it.

May not still.

I have been worried about all of this since I have been posting on NBs.

People need to wake up and see who all are working in conjunction with each other for our demise...along with Israel and others.

...all of what may be coming down the road towards us is more urgency to Drill Often...Drill Everywhere...fast!

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Pop Tech

"There isn't an area of technology we're not ahead in. Russia will spend about $31 billion this year on defense, and has planned a $189 billion, 5-year expansion. Even so, that's about what the U.S. spends in five months."   Investor'sBuinessDaily

Read the whole thing. Looks like a little containment until the Russian economy goes further down the toilet and then the population will change their leadership.

I really don’t think they have upgraded their military as much as they would like people to think, since the collapse of the USSR. It takes money they don’t have yet.

Drill here. Drill now., could help with this problem also.

 

 

If you can't remember . . . the claymore is probably pointed at you.

I *still* say

We've just witnessed the Timothy Treadwell of nation states. Russia's violent over reaction wasn't just typical, it should have been predictable in Georgia's case. I worry about the effects of this intervention on less-authoritarian states like Estonia.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Or Taiwan

Embolden one bully with inaction, and the next one is going to rub your face in it shortly thereafter.

But I do not see us doing much by way of reestablishing Geoirgia if the Bear decides to do what he does anywhere he wants to.

Little bunny rabbits are shaking.

I ♣ my seal

What Georgia did (or tried to do)

And right before the Olympics, was about as far from inaction as Timothy Treadwell's behavior (seeks out encounters with bears) vs Steven Colbert's (fears & hates large bears, just like me!). The President of Georgia gave Russia an excuse they'd probably been seeking for years to attack his country. And I'll admit, if Saakashvili were less of an authoritarian statist to his own countrymen before, he'd probably get more sympathy from me now that he's being attacked by a bigger, stronger mob of authoritarian statists from outside his country. As it stands, my sympathy stops with worry about Estonia, though.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

sarc

Regardless of our interpretation of who provoked whom, we are in an extremely weak position on this one.

And I'm no more sold on Georgia being the initial aggressor than I am of the Redcoats at the Boston Massacre.

I ♣ my seal

Sarc, the Russians

Sarc, the Russians deliberately baited Georgia into it. Sending their sepratists in to attack villages and kill civilians. Russia, was building up the troops in the area. One military has 32,000, Russia attacked with 90,000 troops. If you think this was not planed out by Russia, guess again. Russia said they were "peacekeepers". This was, by all accounts, a planed invasion by Russia. 

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Both (authoritarian) sides

Accuse each other of that very thing at this point. I'm dubious of both, frankly, and I think the provocations over the years probably came from both sides, but the latest one was Georgia moving right before the Olympics. Big mistake.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Whatever

Saakashvili, authoritarian?  Those who participated in the Rose Revolution don't seem to think so.

Also, Georgia had every right to do what it wanted in South Ossetia.  Unless you have evidence that South Ossetia is actually within Russia, since it is part of Georgia, they can do what they want with it.  I am still waiting to see an internationally recognized world map that shows South Ossetia in Russia, instead of Georgia. 

Fact of the matter is that you don't want the United States engaged in the world in virtually any way.  "Make America Whiny" should be a Libertarian motto, as far as foreign policy/international relations are concerned. 

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

South Ossetia does not want to be a part of Georgia

South Ossetia clearly does not want to be a part of Georgia, I hardly see why this is our concern. This is not Russia just acting without merit to aggressively take over former satellites of the Soviet Union.

99% of South Ossetian voters approve independence

 

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

"South Ossetia clearly does

"South Ossetia clearly does not want to be a part of Georgia,"

So what happens when half of California, Texas or New Mexico wants to be part of Mexico ? Do we let them go ?

Supporting " Balkinization will come back to bite us in the A$$.

 

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

No NATO should come in to stop them

We should have NATO come in because this sort of scenario is obviously remotely related.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT, NATO is about as useless as tits on a boar-hog.

What will they do when Ivan turns his attention toward the Ukraine?

Fire spitballs at them?

Good Grief!

-Dave.

Vote None of the Above in '08!

Remotely ? Evidently you

Remotely ? Evidently you must have missed the whole Kosovo, Serbia thingy mah-jig.

Nato? Really? More like Noth-o'.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

- Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

" The Cake is a lie."   

Once apon a time

Once apon a time, the Confederate States "clearly" didn't want to be part of the United States. As no one seemed concerned enough to prevent it, over 250,000 people died when the Confederates attempted to make their separation desires a reality. How many people will die if Russia helps South Ossetia use military force in order to break away from Georgia?

I don’t know about you, but I think that preventing a civil war in Georgia would be a damn good idea.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Not even related

They have NEVER considered themselves part of Georgia.

So lets start a war with Russia who is obviously an absolute joke and if we just send in Rambo will throw all the cheap Russian tanks around in no time. Because we have laser guided bombs that will cause shock and awe and the drunk Russian army will just pass out on the battlefield in fear.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You've gt it backwards.

"They have NEVER considered themselves part of Georgia."

What's your point? I'm pretty sure that hey never considered themselves a part of the Soviet Union ether, but that didn't stop them from being a member state.

"So lets start a war with Russia"

You've got it backwards. We're not going to "start a war" with Russia. Russia has ALREADY started a war with Georgia, an ally of ours. All we would do is send military and financial assistance to Georgia.

I highly doubt that we'd send troops into Russia, we'd send those troops in Georgia. I think that Russia would grumble about us placing troops in Georgia, but that's all they would do. I also think that a civil war would be avoided, with little loss of life.

It seems to me that you're only raising the strawman argument of a war with Russia as you don't want us to support Georgia but have no strong argument as to why we shouldn't support our ally. Am I right or wrong in this assessment?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

You have no argument for the independent South Ossetia

Why should we support Georgia's military aggression against the self-declared independent South Ossetia?

Didn't you hear the Russian's they are there as "Peace Keepers" - So perfect.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

What an fool!

"Why should we support Georgia's military aggression against the self-declared independent South Ossetia?"

What an fool you are! You STILL don't understand that Russia is aiding the people of another country attack their own citizens and government. This is no different than Iran aiding the insurgents in Iraq.

Admit it, Georgia didn't start the conflict, South Ossetia did, and now Russia is assisting them. What possible justification can you give to Russia for interfering in the Georgian conflict ( a conflict that probably wouldn’t occur if not for the outside interference of the Russians), other than to allow Russia to gain control of another country? Do you really respect Russia that much that you're willing to overlook the causalities that will occur if they continues to project military force in Georgia?

Wake Up! Russia is NOT a benign country that is simply aiding an ally. Russia is controlled by a malignant government that wants to recover their former Soviet states, one country at a time.

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

No Different?

If South Ossetia considers themselves independent how did they start the conflict? Russia is there to stop Georgia from attacking the independend South Ossetia, like they say they are Peace Keepers - heh.

Unlike you I actually look up what is going on and not rely on far-right hysterics about the former Soviet Union.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Oddly, you accuse someone

Oddly, you accuse someone of "far-right hysterics" against Russia, yet you seem to be taking the completely opposite position, since both the Ossetians and Georgians are claiming the other side started this whole mess. There is no clear culprit for this tragedy (unless some news has broken over the weekend I do no know abouut). You are on weak footing when you accuse someone of doing exactly what you are doing.

That is the First Rule of Liberalism, btw, and you are hardly one, unless I am mistaken...

 

YES!!!

Rambo and the Muhajadin 2008 Reunion Tour, 1st scheduled stop Moscow!

I knew they were remakin Red Dawn for a reason. :-}

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

Red Dawn Redux?

I can't believe that they're remaking Red Dawn with a "post 9/11" theme! It's Red Dawn meets the Talaban! I wonder how long it will take the Red Dawn Thruthers to start spouting out mindless conspiracy theories?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Cobra,

since Charlie Sheen is a troofer , it shouldn't be long now. :-}

 

 

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love youBut if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

And now, today's  Shrub

And now, today's  Shrub Report®:

Happy birthday, Leni! You would be proud to know your legacy lives on!

Could there finally be a date for our troops to come home from Iraq?

I guess when you are going to criticizing McCain on not knowing how many houses he owns, it might behoove The Hopeful Changer to actually get the number correct themselves.

At any rate, wasn't conveeeeenient that those white-powder envelopes arrived at McCain headquarters, just in time to distract from McCain's latest gaffe. How Rovian!

And, finally, The Hopeful Changer displays more foreign policy savvy. What a douche.

The Swedes hate the Joos.

Could you believe it was 29 years ago today when rock's greatest act released their final album?

The latest Dumbest Government Program Ever is thankfully put to rest.

The Stupid, Inconclusive "Scientific" Study of the Day. I guess this shrubber's dog is a Philistine, since it would eat its own sh*t if it could.

Apparently, "withdrawal" in Russian translates to "dig in for the long haul"… Was the Russian display of military power not as impressive as they hoped?

Interesting day in UK history: It was today in 565 when St Columba stared down the Loch Ness Monster., and in 1485, the War of the Roses pretty much ended as the Battle of Bosworth saw the death of King Richard III, ended the Plantagenent line to the throne of England, and secured the Tudor's . And, in 1914, British troops fought German troops for the first time in WW1. And in 1922, Michael Collins was gunned down in Ireland.

It's beginning to look a lot like Chicago down there

It isn't back-to-school season without the obligatory tales of woe.

Belgium is laughing at you, Brits!

Today's latest example of tolerance by Truthie's masters. Parrot away, Dhimmi!

 

And, finally, China prepares the closing ceremonies

Roger--

Once again, a great column.

 The Online Times article re: the antiquity of the Russian equipment--to me-- is akin to saying, "Oh, yeah", to the bully after he whupped your ass. Totally useless and not face saving at all.

Moral - Even an old bear is dangerous!!!!!!!

Good point, MB. It did

Good point, MB. It did remind me of how Iraq boasted about their incredible military might, which was mainly tanks and planes from the 1990's... It was an interesting read....

 

Excellent!

"At any rate, wasn't conveeeeenient that those white-powder envelopes arrived at McCain headquarters, just in time to distract from McCain's latest gaffe. How Rovian!"

Excellent! That's the best yet!

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

If McCain gets elected

If this situation with Russia and Georgia continues there is one thing you can be sure of....if McCain gets elected he'll only have half the country behind him. If THE ONE wins, he'll just blame W.

Yep

Bingo, blame Bush  ... You can see the same story line coming with the economy and energy prices. It's a hoax, but that's what is waiting in the wings.

How can people be so stupid to vote for Democrats... Is freedom and responsibiulty just too much for the modern guberment screwl graduate ...

The Democrat's convention is going to bash Bush 24/7  just wait ... They always overdo it, just like the stupid Wellstone memorial.

People vote democrat

People vote democrat because of one or (usually) more reasons.

1. They are easily enticed and entranced by democrat speeches.  Good ol' ear tickling.
2. After one or two speeches, they make up their mind and do little in the way of research about the candidate.
3. They judge by looks (Obama Girl)
4. They think the Republican party is old fashioned and irrelevant.
5. They want "change" but they cannot give a solid definition of that "change".
6. They don't full understand what a democracy is.
7. They have ulterior motives.

These among many other reasons.

This was posted over at

This was posted over at Moonbattery yesterday by someone called OIAO (?). Rather lengthy but good.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody (except a Christian or a conservative) is offended by it.

I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they NOW think we're good people.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday CAN tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start riding the subway.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates live.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business should NOT be allowed to make profits for stockholders (pension funds, 401K's, etc). They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as government bureaucrats see fit.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe three or four pointy headed elitist liberals need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would NEVER get their agendas past the voters.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that when the terrorists don't have to hide from us over THERE, and they come over HERE (and they WILL!), I don't want to have any guns in the house to fight them off.

I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever I want. (I've decided to marry the Olsen Twins — both of them — AND their dog!)

I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene, but the GOVERNMENT TAX on gas at 18% isn't.

I'm voting Democrat because I don't want the USA to drill for oil off its own shores to preserve its economic freedom but will allow other countries that choice!! … and even let foreign countries drill off of OUR OWN coast — like China is doing off Florida!!

I'm voting Democrat because I want the Congress to take a vacation to avoid a vote on off-shore drilling.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that 143 days in the US Senate is enough experience for a person to run the whole country!! (For a CHANGE)

I'm voting Democrat because we need a leader with the wisdom that tells us that if we just put more air in our tires instead of drilling for more oil that we can save as much oil as if we drilled new wells. This is the wisdom of 'Change.' WOW!

I'm voting Democrat because I want to PAY for illegal alien health insurance, illegal alien car insurance, illegal alien education, etc. This too, is the wisdom of 'Change'! DOUBLE WOW!

I'm voting Democrat because I want to pay reparations to all the people who once had ancestors who were ever treated poorly (only hyphenated Americans need apply), now that we've apologized to them. TRIPLE WOW!

But mostly I'm voting Democrat because I'm mad at anyone who makes more money than me; and I expect the government to PUNISH them by taking the extra and giving it to me. In fact, I should quit working and let the government give ME even more. QUADRUPLE WOW!

That's 'Change' we can believe in!

See ya at the DNC next week.

If pro is the opposite of con what is the opposite of progress? Congress!

Hope you realize that this

Hope you realize that this was done tongue-in-cheek. Moonbattery is a great site, BTW.

Thanks Rick and Moonbattery...

I'm asking people on my site to not vote for any Dems because they fall in line with the Alarmist view, and this was perfect for getting the point across.

 

Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/  

45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goal

Talking point: Russia and Georgia -- how serious is it?

Extremely serious for our foreign policy. With a new administration coming in, the Russians see a chance for a regional resurgence of power. 

*Previously posted but still relevant:

Russian aggression into Georgia and what did Putin mean when he said, "Our shield response will go beyond diplomacy".

The conversation between Obama and Putin would go something like this: Yes, um Vladimir, um uh this is Barack Obama, um, Obama, um er uh um I've been um um elected uh er President of the um um United States. Obama, um yes that's right, Barack Obama, um um uh er, let me um uh um let me put um uh er er uh Joe Biden on the phone, Biden, Joe Biden.

Putin: до свидания (Goodbye)

Obama: Um wait, wait, um uh would you like to um uh speak to Secretary of State William Ayers?

Putin: click..........

#1

#1 - Don't think for a moment that we did not know well in advance that this was coming. Our intel technology allows us to read the logo on a golf ball from outer space. Plus we track every massive, large, medium and small arms move by EVERYBODY.

#2 - Don't think that we don't have spies on the ground who were not aware of what was going to happen, far ahead of time.

#3 - Don't think for a moment that we aren't massively capable of handling 10 times what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan PLUS 10 more crises like the Russian invasion of Georgia. Although the lefties and the MSM like to spread the word about a weak, overextended and handcuffed America. They only wish and they are full of CRAPOLA to be polite.

#4 - It is not necessarily popular to flaunt our strength in today's world-wide, anti-American sentiment; flames that are fanned by the dems/leftists/MSM's.

#5 - We could kick the dog-dung out of the entire rest of the world combined;;;;in a New York Minute. Don't be mislead by a so-called bogged down anti-insurgency in Iraq that we have tried to fight with both hands and one leg tied behind our back. God love us;;;; that was a mistake that we should have learned about in Viet Nam.

#6 - I am CERTAIN that we have been warning Russia for months: DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! But they did it anyhow.

#7 - They will now  pay an enormous price behind the scenes as well as publicly which is the way of the day in USA/Russia relations. No other type of activity makes any sense.

#8 - The last thing that this world and the USA needs is a totally disabled Russia. The leadership that they have now, no matter how KGB rooted is better than total de-stability. Thats just the way it is.

#9 - Russia is much less a threat to our American way of life than Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed and the liberal MSM.

#10 - I forgot Radical Islam that comes in 5th after all of the above. 

One thing about

... space based golf-ball logo reading, it does not mind read.

I bet you are right about the warnings, sure we knew, the surpirse was the Russians did not take the advice. I believe the Russians saw Obama at the European tour, took his maesure and decided he was just right for the rolling. The hitch in the Russian plan has come when Obama has started his total disintegration by a thousand paper cuts. Polls are not elections, no matter how hard the drive bys would like you to believe otherwise.

The fact that the Russians found Obama just right for their liking, should give pause to every clear thinking American.

The New Democrats

Believe they can rescue the failed Soviet style of government, with hard working American's money. Democrats are modeling their plans after Hugo Chavez and the successes he has had ... Looks like Venezuela is the next country to hit the bowl swirl.

Ask Commisar Pelosi how you become a dictator and takeover.

Sounds like a European problem to me.

Another Cold War will be pointless and unaffordable, now that most of our disposable income is in Asian banks. Let the EU and Israel worry about Russia and Iran respectively. Keep our arsenal polished up in case we need it to protect ourselves. It's not 1946 any more. 

 

Those who believe in nothing will believe anything.

Existing security arrangements

... won't allow this to happen.

Unless of course, Obambi wins, then he wouldn't know what to do anyway, so he will just say to our allies, 'just kidding about protecting you' .. You want protection now, that's going to cost extra.

Throwing Georgia under the bus is a very bad idea. Reagan warned the Europeans about feeding the bear oil money, now look what they have gone and done.

Another whiny isolationist

Most of our disposable income is in Asian banks?  Sounds like the exact same whine I was hearing in the late 1980s.  On the contrary, I made quite a bit of disposable income OFF of Asian banks. :-)

Sounds like another stick-our-heads-in-the-sand whiny isolationist.  The EU won't do jack about Russia.  They did nothing about Germany, many didn't want to do anything about the Soviet Union, and they don't want to do anything now.   

I'd rather burn some cash on a cold war than a LOT of cash on a hot one as we did in WWII.  Gee, we ran up even MORE debt then...

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing gt thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for themedal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Two words...

Czar Putin.  Vladamir Putin is looking to establish a new Russian Empire and Georgia is the first step.  Russia is not leaving despite whatever piece of paper they signed.  It's not like they haven't ignored international agreement before.  I'm guessing Ukraine is next.  If the Ukrainians don't get hooked into NATO very soon, they'll be run over like a Spaniard at Pomplon.

"Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain." Official Motto of the State of Iowa

Mr. Shy on radio tonight

Hey all, sorry to interject with an off-(media-bias)-topic...

Just wanted to let you all know I'll be on The Joey Reynolds Show tonight, WOR Radio 710, based here in NYC (but I believe their reach is pretty far...) It's a late night show that begins at 2:00 am. I should be on soon after this :)

Also, an amazing new video that's wrapping up production will be posted next week, the day AFTER the DNC convention (I know, a tough act to follow... :p)  INFO HERE:

http://mr-shy.com

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

I can pick the station up

I can pick the station up here in eastern NC at night. Trouble is I'm dead to the world at 2 AM.

If pro is the opposite of con what is the opposite of progress? Congress!

I used to listen to WOR on

I used to listen to WOR on that new-fangled thing they call the webernet. I imagine it's still going..

Yep, just checked: http://www.wor710.co...

They also do Podcasts of past shows, so I'll pick it up via that if I fail to arise at 7am here.

The Joey Reynolds Show Podcasts 

No excuses NBers -- SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL SHY RIFF!

Vote 4 change. Vote 4 anything. See Jack & Mr Shy's first campaign ad for the ONLY viable 3rd party candidate.

Jack!!!

Thanks so much for the great support, and for the hard investigative work! :p

I actually knew about the WOR site, and might have actually downloaded a show I was on in 2006 from the podcast page (I've done the show twice before) but totally forgot about that... thanks AGAIN !!!

So yeah, everyone, if you can't get WOR on your dail and/or you're in Snoozeville, you can check it out any time here:

http://wor710.com/pages/46370.php

Just scroll down to the list of podcast links, and tonight's show should have the name "Joey Reynolds-August 23, 2008" :)

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

Hey MrS... Darn two a.m.

Hey MrS...

Darn two a.m. I wished it would of been last night, I might of made it...

Probably a stupid question, I just want to make sure...don't you have to have an IPOD to get that later at the site you and Jack are talking about going to?

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Hey BT

Yeah, you can go to the site and download audio files (or just click a link and it will play on your browser...) and play them straight on your computer, so you don't have to have an iPod or anything. If you ever use iTunes, you can listen to it that way, too :)

In other words, you can do it all on your computer and don't need to export anything to an mp3 player like iPod.

He does very late-night shows on weekends, so I understand... I might also try to download the show and then post it somewhere for people to easily check out. I'll let you know! 

*** UPDATE ***

I just went to his site, and there are several options, including a simple "play" button and the show.... plays! So you should be good to go :) 

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

MrS... Thanks so much for

MrS...

Thanks so much for the reply...

I feel a lot better now as I am looking forward to hearing this.

Have a good time doing the show.

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Immigration agency scraps self-deport program

Immigration agency scraps self-deport program.

I am a little disappointed in this news. I was exploring opportunities. I thought perhaps I could get some financial assistance for a trip to Mexico. I would then cross back illegally as I need some expensive surgery that is not covered by Medicare. I was also looking into the programs (WIC, etc) which when added to my current retirement and my wife's paycheck would make us much more confortable than we are now.

 I just didn't act quickly enough.

How serious is the Russia/Georgia conflict?

It is actually the biggest foreign policy issue that is going on right now. Why? We already have the war on "terror" or radical Islam, depending on how PC you want to be. That isn't going away unless the west decides to surrender and convert. China is growing and becoming more and more powerful and they know it and there is not too much we can do about that. The Iran crisis is marginal and can be dealt with, although we have done a poor job recently thanks to the wimpy Europeans. If Russia is allowed to re-assert itself and given de-facto control over the old Soviet satellite nations (Ukraine, Poland, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, etc.) then we will in effect be dealing with 3 major enemies on 3 different 'fronts'. That will be extremely difficult to sustain, let alone win.

Unless Russia is 'shut down' and made to back off, thus losing 'face' they will be even more bold and confident next time, which likely will be Ukraine before they are granted NATO membership.

All of this will come to a 'head' under the next administration. IMO Obama is so far away from being able to grasp the significance, let alone being able to successfully deal with these issues, that the world will be doomed to decades of Russian/Chinese communist domination and oppression with the US effectively castrated and marginalized.

We need NATO or US troops in Georgia NOW! Since NATO is basically impotent, it must be us. If not, then we doom Georgia to being subjugated by Russia, It's current President being tried for 'war crimes' by a Russian kangaroo court and Russia installing their own puppet government.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

A nice read-----------and reminder

Back in September of 2005, on the first day of school, Martha Cothren, a social studies school teacher at Robinson High School in Little Rock , did something not to be forgotten.

On the first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendent, the principal and the building supervisor , she removed all of the desks out of her classroom.

When the first period kids entered the room they discovered that there were no desks.
'Ms. Cothren, where're our desks?'
She replied, 'You can't have a desk until you tell me what you have done to earn the right to sit at a desk.'
They thought, 'Well, maybe it's our grades.'
'No,' she said.
'Maybe it's our behavior.'
She told them, 'No, it's not even your be havior.'
And so, they came and went, the first period, second period, third period.
Still no desks in the classroom.

By early afternoon television news crews had started gathering in Ms.Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room.

The final period of the day came and as the puzzled students found seats on the floor of the deskless classroom, Martha Cothren said, 'Throughout the day no one has been able to tell me just what he/she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now I am going to tell you.'

At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the door of her classroom and opened it. Twenty-seven (27) U.S. Veterans, all in uniforms, walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk.

The Vets began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over and stand alongside the wall. By the time the last soldier had set the final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had been earned.

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. Don't ever forget it.'

Please consider passing this along so others won't forget that the freedoms we have in this great country were earned by U. S. Veterans.

AMERICA - THE LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

 

Martha Cothren

Good story misterbill, here's a couple links.

Link 1

Link 2

D

Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.

More betrayal

Per Marcus Epstein: 

"Last week, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann(R-MN) called for Congress to reconvene so it could take out parts of the recent Freddie Mac bailout that give $500 million in unmarked grants to far-Left “community development” groups, such as the National Council of La Raza.

Bachmann’s stand is symbolic but admirable. The Treason Lobby’s tentacles are reaching out to seize the American taxpayer"

Fannie & Freddie

Warren Buffett says (confirms) they're dead. He also said John Edwards should return small contributions (which would be morally right, but a lengthy & expensive class action lawsuit against The Silky Pony by his former minions sounds to me like a lot more fun!).
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

We can DRILL or way to Russia's next Defeat

I'm sure this is Obvious....Drill down the price of Oil and Russia hurts for money.
Obvious to everyone unless your name is Pelosi or Reid....
We can't afford NOT to DRILL !!!
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised

JayTee

Sounds like THE Reagan response to me.

Bankrupt the bas***ds.  It's the only thing they truly understand. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

It is now oil, back then it was wheat

I, once again, point to not only the example of how the oil bust of the 1980s hurt Moscow far more than it did Houston, but as well to the example of wheat.

Once upon a time, Russia made mad money off of wheat.  Their biggest export market was Europe.  Odessa was perhaps the greatest wheat port in the world in the first half of the 19th Century. Remnants of this glorious past can still be discerned there today.  The Russians, figuring they could milk the wheat indefinitely, failed to invest their earnings anywhere.  Well, the noblemen indulged in conspicuous consumption but did nothing else.  The serfs were emancipated in 1861 (in a sense, but we'll leave that for now), but by then, it was too late.

For, in 1865, once the Civil War was done in the United States, it found it was generating bumper crops of wheat from what we now call the Midwest.  (So was Canada and Argentina.)  These thre countries flooded world markets with wheat, and this eventually proved catastrophic to the Russian economy.  In some ways, the wheat grown in the United States led to the Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917. 

Perhaps some NBers see a parrallel here with another product that Russia is overly reliant on in modern times??? 

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Victoria Jackson is back

Victoria Jackson is back and stumping for the "Obama is the anti-Christ" crowd! LINK

http://defamer.com/5...

Newsbusters:    Check

Newsbusters:

   Check out the website for Time, the "objective" so-called "news" magazine.  They have declared the "Worst Vice Presidents in U.S. History".  Of those listed by Time who served after 1885, guess which party had the only vice presidents to make the list?  Answer:  The Republican Party of Calvin Coolidge, Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, Dan Quayle and Dick Cheney.

Worst VPs in history?

What kind of a stupid article is this anyways?  Like I told one of my best friends, when he kept going on and on and on about what an evil SOB Cheney is, I asked him what Cheney did other than give the occasional speech, break rare Senate ties, and maybe change a few White House light bulbs?

The Vice Presidency has a nice ring to it but at the end of the day I can't think of a more benign office.

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Unsane

I agree that VP's are, for the most part, just second-fiddle figureheads. But I'd make Cheney the exception.

I think Bush-Cheney is a real equal duo... a very GOOD and EFFECTIVE one, too. I think he is/was (man, they're almost at the end of their tenure) a very key player in the administration and their decisions/policies.

Bush was certainly CIC and made the final calls, but I think they were a pretty close team that bounced a lot of ideas off each other. I also believe, contrary to so many lib idiot's mythical notion of him, that Bush was very respectful towards, and listened to/considered, a lot of points of views and ideas from everyone in his cabinet, including Rice, Rumsfeld, et al.

 

* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change

The Economist and Obama

Just got my first edition of The Economist after a hiatus made necessary by practicality, and what's the thanks I get?  This week's edition has "The Hard Road Ahead" as the headline, and 75% of the front page is covered by a side close-up image of Obama's face. 

I wonder if I need to keep this for a future personality cult if it comes to that... 

The Olympics are now under way in Beijing.  May the people of Beijing get thoroughly sick of hearing The Star Spangled Banner.  May the Beijing Olympic Committee run out of U.S. flags for the medal ceremonies!  USA!  USA!!  USA!!!

Ya'll can argue Russian vs. American weapons all you want.

But if America refuses to use the weapons we have, at the end of the day, what good are they?

Russia has just re-taken a former Soviet satellite country by force - which just happens to be an U.S. ally, btw.

They even signed a "cease-fire" (LOL) agreement in the process, yet, while the West slept, the Russians pressed their aggression still further.

This whole Russia vs. Georgia argument has become academic.

It's over.  

-Dave.

Vote None of the Above in '08!

Suskind Gets Slapped

Man, Ron Suskind must have really pissed off the CIA.

The put out a press release today trashing his book.

https://www.cia.gov/...

George Tenet jumped in with a bitch slap of his own

http://www.georgeten...

 

are your kids misbehaving?

If you live in Nebraska, it is no problem. All you have to do is drop them off at a hospital and let the govenment take care of it.

Lol, that will scare the hell out of your kids, if you don't behave, I'm going to give you away.

Real life video games are cool