On Wednesday, New York Times congressional reporter Carl Hulse reported a flaky story on an apparent controversy over whether John McCain's birthplace (the Panama Canal Zone, where his Navy officer father was stationed in 1936) makes the Arizona senator ineligible for the presidency. Article II of the Constitution declares that only a "natural-born citizen" can serve as president.
In "McCain's Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out," Hulse reported the McCain campaign is researching the question due to "mounting interest" and "Internet buzz." (Interestingly, most of that "buzz" seems to have originated not among liberals, but on right-wing websites the Times would not normally acknowledge the existence of.)
James Taranto at Opinion Journal pointed out that this is an old story -- the Washington Post dealt with it back in 1998 (making it even older than the trumped-up McCain story the Times ran last week) and saw no obstacle to McCain taking office.
Mr. McCain's likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a "natural-born citizen" can hold the nation's highest office.
Almost since those words were written in 1787 with scant explanation, their precise meaning has been the stuff of confusion, law school review articles, whisper campaigns and civics class debates over whether only those delivered on American soil can be truly natural born. To date, no American to take the presidential oath has had an official birthplace outside the 50 states.
"There are powerful arguments that Senator McCain or anyone else in this position is constitutionally qualified, but there is certainly no precedent," said Sarah H. Duggin, an associate professor of law at Catholic University who has studied the issue extensively. "It is not a slam-dunk situation."
Bottom line, Hulse found -- his birthplace most probably doesn't rule McCain out. The question has theoretical interest, but the Times's timing must be questioned in the wake of last Thursday's misfired hit piece on McCain and the lobbyist: Yet another blurry, negative story about McCain since he more or less clinched the Republican nomination.
It's no wonder the Times is losing the confidence of the public. The pollsters at Rasmussen Reports clocked the paper's approval rating at 24% (with 44% disapproval), numbers that make George W. Bush a conquering hero in comparison.
The story was picked up by the CBS "Early Show," and the MRC's Kyle Drennen captured host Harry Smith's opening tease:
"Born in the USA. John McCain wasn't. Can he still be president?"
—Clay Waters is the director of Times Watch, an MRC project tracking the New York Times.



















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Comments Policy
Yeah, guys. Let's
February 28, 2008 - 16:27 ET by Troika37Yeah, guys. Let's disqualify the sons and daughters of those of us who have chosen to serve. What ignorance. US soil is US soil. Embassies, warships, military installations et al.
The Bush Administration has
February 28, 2008 - 16:43 ET by j. frank wilsonThe Bush Administration has been telling us for several years that Gitmo (in Cuba, of course) is not part of the US and that US laws don't apply there. Are you claiming that is incorrect? [I would agree with you on that one, by the way.] Or is it that US laws apply to some people there but not others? Or...?
This is what happens when folks just haul off and make it up as they go along...
You are simply wrong. I
February 28, 2008 - 16:48 ET by Troika37You are simply wrong. I challenge you to find a single quote stating that our military base is not ours. The Administration is not claiming Gitmo is not US soil. They are claiming that illegal combatants are not awarded the protections of a POW - regardless of where they are held.
Way to try to move the goalposts though.
It doesn't even matter if
February 28, 2008 - 16:54 ET by motherbeltIt doesn't even matter if the military base isn't ours. If he's born of 2 US citizens, he is a natural citizen.
I'll repeat this from the other thread:
My twin sons were born in Spain, on a Spanish military installation. Their births are recorded in the town of Torrejon de Ardoz. Their birth certificates are written in Spanish.
They are US citizens. Their certificates from the US Government say "Certificate of the birth abroad, of a US citizen." Birth of a citizen abroad.
That is specific. It means that they were BORN citizens. They weren't made citizens after they were born. They are US citizens who were born abroad.
Mother, Thanks for making
February 28, 2008 - 17:13 ET by Troika37Mother,
Thanks for making that about as crystal clear as it can be made.
Please see Shafiq Rasul,
February 28, 2008 - 17:18 ET by j. frank wilsonPlease see Shafiq Rasul, et. al., Petitioners, v. George W. Bush...Brief for the Respondents [first signature: Theodore B. Olson, who is now researching the other side for Sen. McCain] Nos. 03-334 and 03-343:
"3. The government moved to dismiss all three actions for lack
of subject-matter jurisdiction. As the government explained in its
motions to dismiss, under the principles recognized by this Court
in Johnson v. Eisentrager, supra, U.S. courts lack jurisdiction
over claims filed on behalf of the Guantanamo detainees because
they are aliens with no connection to the United States, and they
are being detained outside of the sovereign territory of the United
States. The district court agreed that “Eisentrager, and its
progeny, are controlling” (Pet. App. 48a (citation omitted)), and
dismissed for lack of jurisdiction. Id. at 32a-64a." [emphasis added].
This is a wrong-headed arguement the Bushies have been making for years...and it was only a matter of time before it came around to bite 'em on the rear end.
You should read Geneva.
February 28, 2008 - 17:30 ET by Troika37You should read Geneva. Article 4 of the Geneva Convention specifies the conditions under which combatants who aren't members of a country's armed forces may be deemed POWs. All others are specified as illegal combatants.
1. That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates.
2. That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance.
3. That of carrying arms openly.
4. That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Article 4 also authorizes the summary execution of those who are captured while engaged in illegal combat. This was last invoked in 1976 when one American and three British soldiers were executed by Angolan forces for engaging in illegal combat. It is clear (even to those of us not well-versed in law) that the terrorists in Iraq do not meet any of these requirements, much less all of them
Perhaps it is a bad idea
February 28, 2008 - 17:43 ET by j. frank wilsonPerhaps it is a bad idea for you to tie your shoelaces together before you try to run around the block.
I did not say the Gitmo detainees were POW's. I said they were entitled to the protections due them under the Geneva Convention ("... relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War").
You are the one talking about POW's. Not me.
PS: The made-up Bush Admin term is "enemy combatants." "Illegal/unlawful" comes from the Convention.
Actually, the protections
February 28, 2008 - 18:06 ET by BDActually, the protections awarded to illegal combatants by the accords are few. In fact, most countries who follow the accords convene courts martial, essentially convict before a panal of officers, and quickly dispatch the illegal combatant, generally in the same manner as non-uniformed spies detained on the battlefield..
In this manner, we (The US military) are providing significantly MORE protection to the Illegal combatants by providing the care appropriate to a POW than is normally the case we expect to witness all other nations to apply.
It is my belief that that is the reason the Bush administration uses the term Enemy combatants due to this distinction.
@Troika37: You challenged
February 28, 2008 - 18:07 ET by j. frank wilson@Troika37: You challenged me to show you where the Bush Administration had ever claimed Gitmo was not part of the US. I did. Your response? Silence so far...
So?
February 28, 2008 - 19:55 ET by ArcherBSo what's your point? If you are right, and I doubt you are, are you saying that John McCain should be disqualified from running for Prez? Is that how you want a Democrat to win the presidency? After all that bitching and moaning about how GWB was "selected" and not "elected" against the will of the people (which is also false, btw), you want to see a Democrat win on a technicality? So does the will of the people only matter if they vote for a Democrat?
I really hope the Democrats persue this. It will show the kind of chicken-shit tactics they will employ just to gain power over the will of the people.
Congratulations. You are one of them. How does it feel to realize that you want your guy to win so badly, that you will gladly see the will of the people denied in order to get it.
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary." Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Please see my reply,
February 28, 2008 - 17:30 ET by j. frank wilsonPlease see my reply, below...Happy to report the goal posts remain firmly in place...
Posts moved
February 28, 2008 - 19:57 ET by ArcherBSee my reply above for an example of how the original location of the goal are irrelevant to your kind.
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary." Ernesto "Che" Guevara
@Troika37: Now we all know
February 29, 2008 - 11:34 ET by j. frank wilson@Troika37: Now we all know you are not only poorly informed but gutless as well. Still awaiting your response. Isn't it kind of hard to type when you're sitting there with your tail between your legs?
J Frank: I await your
February 29, 2008 - 12:17 ET by BDJ Frank:
I await your reply as well, above.
I used "cab drivers" as an
February 29, 2008 - 13:08 ET by j. frank wilsonI used "cab drivers" as an example. Clearly one the major issues with Gitmo is we don't know who is down there. Is it any better than we've held journalist gem dealers (gee - wonder why the Pakistani Security Service would grab them, along with their gems and money?), a random bus passenger, Casio watch owners (look out for those guys!):
http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0203nj4.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4505403.stm
Why do you assume we do
February 29, 2008 - 14:35 ET by BDWhy do you assume we do not know who is down at Gitmo?
Are you saying the US military does not know who they are currently interrogating?
Or do you make the natural liberal assumption that the US military is not to be trusted with the knowledge of who is currently detained?
And why do you assume that the press, who makes the assertion regarding your GEM dealer, or random Bus Passenger is more believeable than the US Military?
By the way, did the US ever release to the press a by name list of a POWs detained during WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam? (Answer, no. That is a violation of the Accords.)
@BD: There you go again,
February 29, 2008 - 14:48 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: There you go again, reading into posts things that just aren't there. But I remember you as the guy who can turn a note to the milkman into War and Peace. You are excellent at adding whatever you want to what you read, rather than letting the post speak for itself.
I don't believe the US military knows who many of the Gitmo detainees were and are because of the way they were acquired. By the time we got them many had been handed off several times. This, of course, is why we released quite a few - belatedly, of course, but on some level that is better than still keeping them.
As to who (whom?) they were and are:
http://law.shu.edu/aaafinal.pdf
J Frank: You make brief,
February 29, 2008 - 15:08 ET by BDJ Frank:
You make brief, broad-sweeping statements and I am attacked for attempting to gain clarification from you ?????? Life is so unfair (please remind the liberals of that for me)
Your statement that we released detainees is accurate, but the statement that they were never determined to be a threat is inaccurate. the accurate statement would be that many who were released were released to their own home countries who had pledged to hold them, while others were determined to NO LONGER BE A THREAT. Many of the countries immediately released these detainees, often coming to regret it later.
Your source (SHU), being a legal education group rather than an intelligence or defense related agency is not qualified to make those distinctions.
You seem to assume that the current fight is a legal event much akin to the TV Series Law and Order (which I detest) rather than a long and very dirty WAR.
@BD: No attack. You seem
February 29, 2008 - 15:58 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: No attack. You seem a bit defensive...Meanwhile, where are your sources? You are great on pontificating. Short on references. This is, after all, News Busters - not News Blusters...
I agree with the view that we would be much better off addressing this very serious problem as a criminal activity rather than as a war. I believe The Art of War - war is messy, uncontrolled, expensive, and difficult to sustain over a long period of time. Police work, on the other hand, will - like the poor - always be with us.
Which item would you like
February 29, 2008 - 16:21 ET by BDWhich item would you like sourced?
I disagree with the statement that we would be better off addressing this srious problem as a crime rather than a war.
1.) Please cite for me the current law prohibiting an external "Agency" from acquiring intelligence information regarding a future strike on the US from outside the US. There is not one.
2.) Please cite for me the law which makes it illegal for a group of terrorists to squat in a village in Sonora awaiting the right opportunity to cause an incursion into the US to wreak havoc. No such US law exists.
3.) Please cite for me the current law on the books that makes it illegal for a member of AQ to seek a weapon of mass destruction from a country that currently possesses them or will soon possess one. No such US law exists and unless performed from US soil.
4.) Would you prefer US snipers who have a bead on AQ Targets of opportunity in the mountains of the Afghan/Pakistan border area to turn on rotating police lights and sounding sirens prior to demanding immediate surrender of said AQ to surrender prior to engaging?
The Current GWOT is obviously a war rather than a criminal infraction and any amount of effort by the legal class to modify this to gain social power is misguided.
The desire by liberals to make it not so or address it differently harkens back to their misguided belief that passing of laws will somehow change this.
Guilty of wearing olive
February 29, 2008 - 13:13 ET by j. frank wilsonGuilty of wearing olive drab clothing? Talk about getting a ticket from the fashion police! Maybe they used to shop at the old Banana Republic ("In Surplus We Trust")?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/terror/20060207-1645-guantanamo-detainees.html
If the US encountered a
February 29, 2008 - 14:39 ET by BDIf the US encountered a person in the Northern sahara region of 1943 wearing short pants made of Africa Yellow, should they have not detained him as well?
You simply assume that the news you hear from you r source is the accurate story. I can nearly guarantee you it is not.
@BD: That would depend on
February 29, 2008 - 16:22 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: That would depend on whether the color of his shorts clashed with his shirt and sandals.
Nice attempt at a dodge, but
February 29, 2008 - 16:26 ET by BDNice attempt at a dodge, but obviously persons encountered wearing Africa Yellow shorts in North Africa during WWII were immediately suspected of being Afrika Korps members and treated in the approriate manner.
@BD: Not a "dodge." A
February 29, 2008 - 16:32 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: Not a "dodge." A joke. Your post was obvious and not really relevant to the topic. So I treated it as it should have been treated. Did you really think you were making some sort of clever, subtle point?
But let's return to the original post: I find it amusing that the Bush Administration made the claim that the Guantanamo Bay military base is not part of the United States. And now Mr. Olson is working for Sen. McCain to make a case that Sen. McCain can serve as President of the United States despite the fact he was born on an overseas military base.
Amusing. Certainly more so than your most recent post...
You made the statement that
February 29, 2008 - 16:41 ET by BDYou made the statement that a person was detained "Guilty of wearing olive drab clothing?" as cut against the logic. Guilt by fashion.
I made the logical historical reference to a similar concept. Did you not get that?
Your logical historical
February 29, 2008 - 17:02 ET by j. frank wilsonYour logical historical reference just wasn't very logical. The two situations are not the same.
I do find your North Africa fixation rather interesting. Did you just read "Alamein to Zem Zem?"
The North Africa references
February 29, 2008 - 17:11 ET by BDThe North Africa references are intentional since there are many common reference points and themes from our current conflict in Middle East and the conflict of 1943-44. If you wish I can detail them more with a bit of effort.
I have NOT just recently read anything in regard to that conflict, having spent the past couple of weeks reading Rick Atkinsons book on the Invasion of Sicily and the Italian Campaign.
however, I would recommend Atkinsons book "An Army At Dawn" to give you a higher appreciation of the North African Campaign.
Poorly informed?
February 29, 2008 - 17:48 ET by Troika37Poorly informed? Gutless?
Let's see... Degree from Penn State in Int'l Politics, combat experience in multiple theatres of the current war. I guess that takes care of the first two. I do suppose I should apologize for taking too long for your liking. That whole 'managing a bank branch' thing takes up a lot of my time. The rest of it goes to my family. It's not often I can hover around my pc and wait to see if j. frank wilson has left a snide message for me.
Let's go over the facts: Geneva does not protect illegal combatants. If Bush made up the term, why is it that Brits and Americans were EXECUTED by Angola in 1976 for being ILLEGAL COMBATANTS? I'm pretty sure Bush wasn't the President then, nor is he an author of Geneva.
Those held in Gitmo are not US citizens, and thus not protected by the US Constitution.
I'm not sure what it is that's hard for you to understand.
@Troika37: I made the
March 1, 2008 - 10:37 ET by j. frank wilson@Troika37: I made the statement the Bush Administration has claimed for several years that Gitmo is not subject to US laws. You challenged me to find one time that had been done. I quickly did (wasn't hard at all). You went on to post on other matters (so much for being busy) but failed to acknowledge the fact that I was correct and you were wrong. You still haven't...
J Frank: You err. The
March 3, 2008 - 09:45 ET by BDJ Frank:
You err. The Bush adminstration has not said that Gitmo is exempt from US law. In fact it is covered by the UCMJ.
The detainees are also so covered and will be tried by a military tribunal when approriate.
How about this...
February 29, 2008 - 23:08 ET by BritcomFrom the State Dept. Foreign Affairs Manual:
7 FAM 1116.1-4
Not Included in the Meaning of "In the United States"
(TL:CON-64; 11-30-95)
...
c. Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations
abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the
United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on
the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.
---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
Dead horse, dude.
February 29, 2008 - 23:09 ET by BlondeDavid Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
J. Frank, Show us where
February 28, 2008 - 17:12 ET by mattmJ. Frank, Show us where Bush said U.S. Laws don't apply there.
I know what you're referring to, but you are missing two important facts. First, the Constitution - mainly the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments - does not apply to prisoners of war (regardless of where they are located); and secondly the camp at Gitmo is operating under U.S. Law, not in violation of it.
But, of course, as you say: This is what happens when folks just haul off and make it up as they go along...
From the Supreme Court case
February 28, 2008 - 17:28 ET by j. frank wilsonPlease see my reply, above...
The Geneva Convention covers the "enemy combatants" (although that name is also something just made up by the Bushies) held at Guantanamo.
As if Al-Qaeda abides by
February 28, 2008 - 17:39 ET by mattmAs if Al-Qaeda abides by the out-dated and irrelevant Geneva Convention... what a joke.
So just because Al -Q
February 28, 2008 - 17:43 ET by balboaSo just because Al -Q doesn't abide by the Geneva Convention then we don't?
Actually, one of the charms
February 28, 2008 - 18:12 ET by BDActually, one of the charms of the Geneva accords is that they allow each nation to conduct "Justifiable Repriasals" in response to previous misconduct.
In other words, if the enemy violates the convention by making a practice of immediately executing all personnel from your side that they capture on the battlefield, then the accords allow your side to conduct an identical action as a repraisal in order to bring your enemy back into accordance with the convention.
From what I learned years ago at the Command and General Staff Course, the right to conduct such a repriasal for the US is held at the National Command Authority.
I see you are ducking my
February 28, 2008 - 17:50 ET by j. frank wilson@mattm: I see you are ducking my reply regarding the Bush Administration's wild claim that Gitmo isn't part of the US...no surprise there...
In the meantime, do you suggest the standard the United States should hold for itself is the lowest standard of our enemy's? If that is the case, what is the difference between them and us? There wouldn't be any, would there?
Currently we are NOT holding
February 28, 2008 - 18:15 ET by BDCurrently we are NOT holding the lowest standard of our enemy. See note above for detail.
@BD: I most certainly did
February 28, 2008 - 18:49 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: I most certainly did not suggest the US Military has lowered its standards to those of the enemy. I have no basis for such a statement. I did say I thought to do so would be a very poor idea. And I'll stand by that.
The implication of your
February 29, 2008 - 09:59 ET by BDThe implication of your statement was that indeed the US had.
@BD: I respectfully disagree
February 29, 2008 - 11:14 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: I respectfully disagree with you. You read something into my post that simply is not there. There is no "implication." I wrote: "...do you suggest the standard the United States should hold for itself is the lowest standard of our enemy's? If that is the case, what is the difference between them and us? There wouldn't be any, would there?" [emphasis added] Those two words make it very clear - I was asking the other poster about his statements. There is no logical reason to suggest I said anything about how the US Military is currently conducting itself.
So you agree that the US
February 29, 2008 - 12:19 ET by BDSo you agree that the US military is, and has been acting in accordance?
J Frank?
February 29, 2008 - 15:09 ET by BDJ Frank?
BD,
February 29, 2008 - 15:56 ET by MassConservPerhaps you could borrow his taunt from below. He seems to like it as he's used it at least twice in this thread.
@MassConserv: And what's
February 29, 2008 - 16:05 ET by j. frank wilson@MassConserv: And what's wrong with that? Two posters asked me to prove it. I did. They've been silent (on this subject) for the subsequent 24 hours. They tucked their tails between their legs and hid. Do you dispute the facts? Or just not like the fact I've called them out on it?
J Frank.
February 29, 2008 - 16:07 ET by MassConservJust seemed lame, that's all.
@BD: I would not.
February 29, 2008 - 16:25 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: I would not.
Therefore the inference
February 29, 2008 - 16:28 ET by BDTherefore the inference was correct despite your attempts to wiggle off the hook.
@BD: Nope. You are
February 29, 2008 - 16:35 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: Nope. You are attempting to join together two completely separate statements.
I asked "So you agree that
February 29, 2008 - 16:53 ET by BDI asked "So you agree that the US military is, and has been acting in accordance?"
And you stated you would not agree with that statement.
What else is there to say? You will not trust the US military, but seem willing to trust published reports by various legal organizations. I am not surprised, as most liberals will always trust a shyster over an honest soldier.
@BD: The Seaton Hall study
March 1, 2008 - 10:47 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: The Seaton Hall study was 100% based on Department of Defense documents. Did you read it? Do you dispute the findings? Or do you simply dismiss it because the military are always right and the civilians are always wrong? When did all lawyers become "shysters?" To suit your poor arguement?
Should you - God forbid - have the horrible misfortune to fact a Court Martial - will you count on a lawyer to represent you?
There is a great passage in A Man For All Seasons - when Thomas Moore's son-in-law takes about the futility of the rule of law. Sir Thomas says [I paraphrase here - from memory] "The land is planted thick with laws from coast to coast. If you were to cut them down do you think you could withstand the wind that would blow?"
J frank: I have NOT read
March 3, 2008 - 09:57 ET by BDJ frank:
I have NOT read the Seton Hall study. however, I have had contact with the area in question and know the players in question there. While occasional issues have arrisen (Failure to place a Koran in the approved "HAMMOCK" etc) they are significantly fewer than any other detention facility in US history.
If I shall face a court martial, then I shall defend myself as any honorable officer would. I have served on a court martial, and have also served on the panel. Honor dictates you not have someone else do your fighting, nor seek "loop holes" and failures of law solely to gain freedom. Why, are you a mamber of that mercenary profession that is "The law?".
@mattm: Now we all know you
February 29, 2008 - 11:36 ET by j. frank wilson@mattm: Now we all know you are not only poorly informed but gutless as well. Still awaiting your response. Isn't it kind of hard to type when you're sitting there with your tail between your legs?
So now we cut and paste
March 1, 2008 - 09:23 ET by Troika37So now we cut and paste comments?
Clever boy.
@Troika37: mattm made the
March 1, 2008 - 10:41 ET by j. frank wilson@Troika37: mattm made the same challenge you did. Why bother to come up with something new for people who won't just admit they were wrong? Stick around - you both might learn something (although I do rather doubt it).
Gitmo is not US territory
February 28, 2008 - 17:49 ET by 10ksnookerIt is leased by treaty from Cuba. Much different than US soil.
Not US soil
February 28, 2008 - 21:01 ET by evilcontractorFinally, someone gets it right. Military bases are not considered US soil. Only American Embassies and Consulates are considered to be "US soil". This is exactly why Gitmo is housing the bad guys so liberals cannot make idiotic claims that US Constitutional protections apply. By the way, the Constitution only applies to US citizens and persons, not terrorist killing Americans (or anyone else) in a foreign country.
US Military Bases and Law
February 28, 2008 - 23:25 ET by CobraManHere’s how I understand the complex subject of sovereignty and legal jurisdiction after the briefings I received as a member of the military who was stationed at bases both overseas and here in the U.S.:
Criminal (legal) jurisdiction of any federal military base is relegated to the Judge Advocate General and all personnel within the base, both military and civilian, are governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
In the case of a federal military base in a foreign country or territory, jurisdiction may be shared with the host country if such an agreement is stated within the treaty that established the base. In other words, UCMJ law is the supreme law at a federal military base no matter where that base is located. The Judge Advocate General may, at his or her discretion, turn over jurisdiction of anyone within the base to the legal system of the host country, but only if there is a prior agreement to share such jurisdiction.
In regards to federal military bases within the sovereign territories of the U.S., UCMJ is still the supreme law. As with the case of overseas bases with shared jurisdiction, the Judge Advocate General may, at his or her discretion, turn over jurisdiction to the applicable state or federal authorities. This does not mean that the state has absolute jurisdiction as you may still face trial by military tribunal. For example, if you commit a murder at a federal military base in Minnesota you can be tried by a military tribunal and, if found guilty, be subject to the death penalty even though the Minnesota State Constitution bans the death penalty as a means of criminal punishment.
In the case of Gitmo, only the Judge Advocate General has criminal jurisdiction as that is what stated in the treaty that established the base. This means that federal laws not covered by the UCMJ do not apply. Nor do the laws of Cuba.
In regards to federal military bases and sovereignty, that is also dependent upon the treaty that established the base. If such sovereignty is stated with a treaty, then the base in question is considered by law as the sovereign territory of the United States.
It should be noted that the Uniform Code of Military Justice is U.S. Law but it is normally separate from, and not subject to, other existing federal statutes and codes.
I hope that answers your questions.
Huh?
February 28, 2008 - 16:42 ET by kwakuI thought the the drive buys love immigrants? :)
Oh! PLEASE?!?!?
February 28, 2008 - 16:44 ET by drillanwrKeep this load of crap up!!!
Cindy McCain will be picking out drapes this time next year ...
When you men get home and face an anti-war protestor, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she’s dating a pussy… ~ Attributed to General Tommy Franks
With the impeding death of
February 28, 2008 - 17:03 ET by pocomocoWith the impeding death of the NYT, updating resumes and job searching must be at a fever pitch in the newsrooms.
Where exactly they would go is somewhat questionable since other publications are in no better shape.
Since many of them, as this article suggets, are so good at wishful thinking and writing fiction, perhaps they could start writing The Great American Novel,
However, they'll never find their novel on the NYT Best Sellers List, will they?
" The Administration is
February 28, 2008 - 17:28 ET by chessplayer" The Administration is not claiming Gitmo is not US soil. They are claiming that illegal combatants are not awarded the protections of a POW - regardless of where they are held. "
Then why are the prisoners being held at Gitmo instead of a military base within the continental US?
Way to hit it out of the
February 28, 2008 - 17:33 ET by j. frank wilsonWay to hit it out of the park!
So illegal combatants from
February 28, 2008 - 19:35 ET by Troika37So illegal combatants from Iraq or Iran or Syrai or Saudi Arabia should be afforded US Constitutional protections and should have the potential to escape into the general population of the United States?
Liars, Lawyers, and Judges
February 28, 2008 - 21:53 ET by CGatton"...why are the prisoners being held at Gitmo..."
To prevent the ACLU lawyers (pronounced 'lie-ers' in Idaho) from judge shopping and trying to make the issue about citizen's rights. Pretty straight forward and documented over the last four years, but unlikely to ring a bell with the people arguing this idiocy.
See, the military takes its orders from the President, and no pissant circuit court judge in San Francisco can make that go away. If they were held in some pokey here in CONUS, there would be a little cracker-jack box judge who would order them released, and a jail official who would knee-jerk first and release, and think afterwards. Better to not let that happen.
Quite simple when you stop and really think about it.
R/
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
They are not POW's. These
February 28, 2008 - 22:06 ET by NL207They are not POW's. These persons do not meet the tests of Article 4 of the Geneva Conventions to attain that status. Nor do they meet the tests of Article 3 to be considered non-combatants.
These are unlawful combatants. They are lumped together with spies, saboteurs, fifth columnists, traitors, etc. In general, such persons my be tried and executed by Military Tribunal at the discretion of their captors.
If they had not wanted to get thenmselves into such a predicament, then perhaps they should not have taken up arms.
NL207... Short and sweet
February 28, 2008 - 22:28 ET by Clear thinkerNL207...
Short and sweet beats long twisted logic every time. Thank you!
For me the case is closed.
"Abstain from McCain"
@NL207: You gloss over the
February 29, 2008 - 11:21 ET by j. frank wilson@NL207: You gloss over the fact that many Gitmo detainees were obtained from bounty hunters or turned over to us by the Pakistan security service or others with dubious motives. In many cases the US has no direct evidence these cab drivers and others ever took up arms. Your "logic" (and I'm being generous here) is circular. We have them because they are guilty; and we know they are guilty because we have them.
Please provide proof other
February 29, 2008 - 12:22 ET by BDPlease provide proof other than statements from former detainees or lawyers of the currently detained that we currently hold "innocent cab drivers from Pakistan."
By your own admission these
March 1, 2008 - 00:29 ET by NL207By your own admission these persons were (1) on the field of battle
The "cab driver" you refer to, is he not the man purported to have been Osama bin Laden's chauffeur?
If you are dressed as a cab driver, you are (2) out of uniform.
And, if you happen to be bin Laden's chauffeur, you are (a) a member of Al Qaeda and (b) in possession of a weapon.
Those who are found on the field of battle, out of uniform, and in possession of a weapon are going to be treated as spies and saboteurs.
Wilson, that you believe these asinine tales these zealots relate about how they aren't enemy combatants just shows your gullability. The truth is that most of these "detainees" are terrorists. The proof lies in the activities of those we have been so unwise as to release before they were dead: to wit. They are almost all later identified with new terror attacks like these after their release.
The only thing glossy here are your segues over the true nature and intentions of the vast majority of these "detainees" . My opinion? These men should all be executed by firing squad immediately as fifth columnists, i.e. illegal combatants. This is the standard disposition for such persons under wartime conditons. Hans Herbert Haupt comes to mind. FDR had him and his co-conspirators executed by electric chair for just this offense.
It doesn't matter.
February 28, 2008 - 23:54 ET by CobraMan<i>"Then why are the prisoners being held at Gitmo instead of a military base within the continental US?"
It doesn't matter where the prisoners are held, their legal status and the conditions in which they're detained would remain the same. Even if they were being held in a federal military base within the continental US, they would still be subject to military rule, not civilian, as all federal military bases are subject to, and governed by, military authority as per the laws of the United States.
It doesn't matter.
February 28, 2008 - 23:59 ET by CobraMan"Then why are the prisoners being held at Gitmo instead of a military base within the continental US?"
It doesn't matter where the prisoners are held, their legal status and the conditions in which they're detained would remain the same. Even if they were being held in a federal military base within the continental US, they would still be subject to military rule, not civilian, as all federal military bases are subject to, and governed by, military authority as per the laws of the United States.
Sorry for the double post
February 29, 2008 - 00:02 ET by CobraManSorry for the double post. I'm not sure why that happened.
What hit? What ballpark?
February 28, 2008 - 17:54 ET by woolIs your premise that the combatants are entitled to a jury trial? They do not wear uniforms
They do not bear arms openly
They utilize civilians as shields
They do not fight for any recognized government
They kill indiscriminately- this includes both civilians and prisoners
Is your feeling that these people should be given a trial in an American court?
@woo!: "What hit? What
February 28, 2008 - 18:01 ET by j. frank wilson@woo!: "What hit? What ballpark?" - Close your eyes and you'll miss the pitch every time...
Unlike you, I have faith the American justice system. The best example we can give the world is to use the system we have. Bring criminals to the bar of justice, give them a fair trial, and show the world our system works. What are you afraid of? Why does the Bush Administration have to haul off and try to invent on the fly a whole new procedure that doesn't work and keeps getting shot down?
BTW: There are some very interesting historical parallels between the situation in Afganistan and Iraq and parts of Kansas, Missouri, and Kentucky during the American Civil War.
Witnesses?
February 28, 2008 - 18:14 ET by woolThe judicial system relies heavily on witnesses. As the war is abroad, shall we scoop up all of the villagers and bring them here?
Traditionally, the military handles these issues. We do not bring matters of war into the court system. In fact, there is a strong case to be made for summarily executing those fighting without uniforms.
However, I would propose a compromise:
Knowing the consequences of touching or being touched by pork, Muslims would likely lose the taste for battle if we make it known that all ammo will be coated in lard. I say that we start offering jury trails to appease our leftist element, but we get to start coating the ammo with pig fat.
You have made the critial
February 28, 2008 - 18:20 ET by BDYou have made the critial mistake of liberal lawyers, the assumption that our desire is to criminalize our enemy.
If we follow the Geneva accords as you wish elsewhere, then in fact we are not allowed to do so. As such, the North Vietnamese violated this in the 1960's by declaring the US pilots captured during shootdowns as "Sky Pirates" and deciding to hold trials regardless of how bogus.
The US pilots status as POWS prohibited this.
What would the left have us do?
February 28, 2008 - 18:29 ET by woolIs it the wish of leftist that these prisoners be put in prison? I have never actually seen or heard them suggest so, but there seems to be a determination to move them into the system.
I suspect that they want to see America on trial and that always makes me wonder who they are for.
Do thay notice what is happening in France where the Muslims are rioting almost nightly? To read about it, you will need to use "disaffected youths" to search. The press avoid accurate labeling.
Anyway, the Muslims there are coddled and yet they are unsatisfied. Clearly, America is not to blame for all Muslim unrest.
This is a unique situation
February 28, 2008 - 18:34 ET by balboaThis is a unique situation in our lifetime. What I don't want to see is a bunch of people rot in a prison if we don't truly know whether they're guilty or not. Figure out who's guilty, who's not, and do something.
Not very unique, they are just not being executed
February 28, 2008 - 20:21 ET by general companyWhat I don't want to see is a bunch of people rot in a prison if we don't truly know whether they're guilty or not.
Who does,
First question who are you giving the benefit of the doubt too?
Second question, why have so many of these folks that have been let go returned to the exact activity they were apprehended for in the first place if they are so innocent?
You see liberals hate Bush more then the very folks who want them dead, stupid aint it!
But there is good news for all liberals, have you noticed how we are not stock piling these folks anymore? Why do you think that is? I will tell you why, it is a lot less hassle to just kill them instead. Happy now?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
@general company: You are
February 29, 2008 - 11:26 ET by j. frank wilson@general company: You are (unfortunately) not the first to use the silly "arguement" that these folks must have been guilty because once released they "return" to "...the exact activity they were apprehended for in the first place..." If I were an innocent person, thrown into prison by another country, and then released, you can be damn sure I would spend the rest of my life making sure that country was sorry for what they had done to me. If I hadn't made up my mind before that would sure do it for me. And it wouldn't be very hard to do that if that country was operating in my back yard.
So, Italian prisoner
February 29, 2008 - 12:38 ET by BDSo, Italian prisoner captured in North Africa by the British and detained in North America by the US should be allowed to harbor ill will towards the US and act upon it?
@BD: Is your Italian
February 29, 2008 - 16:38 ET by j. frank wilson@BD: Is your Italian prisoner a soldier or a pizza chef? Please go back and read my post. You missed the "i" word...
You miss the main
February 29, 2008 - 16:49 ET by BDYou miss the main concept.
A person detained in the theater MIGHT be innocent (As an Arab living in the Hindu Kush probably not, but it must be assumed as so regardless of the idealogical postion of the various presses ) but like our Italian detainee, he MIGHT be.
Likewise Italians lived in Libya prior to WWII when it was an Italian possession, therefore it can be assumed that the person detained MIGHT have been a pizza cook. Should we have released all Italians transferred to us by the 8th Army which were captured within Libya in 1943?
Should we have held trials for each individual Italian detainee to prove that they had illegally joined the Italian Forces?
Yea right? j. frank wilson
February 29, 2008 - 21:57 ET by general companyOK, so we are locking them up for the heck of it. Your argument is of an 8 yr olds nature, grow up, this is the real world. These folks were picked up trying to kill other people and when relesed and continued to attempt to kill more people. I guess that is OK by you as long as the people they are trying to kill are your nieghbores and countrymen. The rest of your life huh, in your case I actualy believe this, because you seem to give everyone a pass exsept the very folks you live with. You are naive beyond a reasonable doubt. Silly arguments, are obviously your specialty
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
If by guilt, do you mean a
February 29, 2008 - 10:06 ET by BDIf by guilt, do you mean a member of AQ or an associate?
bal... What I don't want
February 29, 2008 - 22:24 ET by Clear thinkerbal...
What I don't want to see is a bunch of people rot in a prison if we don't truly know whether they're guilty or not.
In every war, innocent people get trapped into the unfortunate position of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Blame those that started this war, not your government.
I don't like the idea of innocent people being in the position they may be in, but how do you prove someone is innocent when they get picked up in a combat zone and only one side is wearing a uniform? You don't. You need a reality check.
"Abstain from McCain"
So you're OK with people
February 29, 2008 - 22:45 ET by balboaSo you're OK with people being unjustly imprisoned?
You mean "people"
February 29, 2008 - 22:50 ET by BlondeWho are in the middle of a combat zone, firing at our troops, who are not in a uniform of a government?
People like that?
Hell yeah...I'm all for them being unjustly imprisoned. Like all those Taliban dudes, bal.
Or just the garden variety of terrorist (insurgent...or since you have liberal sensibilities....a "freedom fighter") in Iraq.
No worries.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I'm not talking about those
February 29, 2008 - 22:53 ET by balboaI'm not talking about those obvious examples.
Well, Bal....
February 29, 2008 - 22:58 ET by BlondeTell us then, exactly to whom are you referring as "people"?
You know...those unjustly locked up ones.....
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
oh sorry we thought
February 29, 2008 - 22:58 ET byyou were impling Gitmo, so Blonde covered it
No Poofdas
My only point was that I
February 29, 2008 - 23:14 ET by balboaMy only point was that I don't want to find out 25 years from now that some poor sap spent his life in Gitmo for no reason. That's all.
Gee Bal
February 29, 2008 - 23:20 ET by BlondeYou mean some poor sap who was the 21st terr who missed his flight?
Like that?
If they're caught on the battlefield with a bunch of Tali's...they're fair game. I could hardly care less.
They wouldn't give you a second thought before they lopped off your head. You're an infidel. Lower than a rat in their mind.
So save your sympathy for someone who deserves it....like the mothers and brothers and wives and brothers and daughters of people who were annihilated in the World Trade Centers.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Hi Blonde
February 29, 2008 - 23:30 ET by shawn228First of all I want to point out that coddling terrorist is wrong, and if are 100 percent sure they have information, we should do whatever is necessary to protect our country from people that want to kill us.
That being said here is an example of someone that was wrongfully deported and tortured. There have been other examples of innocents getting tortured at Guantanamo as well. What about the ones the that were not related to any terrorist or the ones that truly they have done nothing wrong and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time, would you say the United States owe them a apology?
Shawn
February 29, 2008 - 23:36 ET bywhat has that to do with people captured on a battlefield being held by the US??
No Poofdas
also Shawn he was deported
February 29, 2008 - 23:41 ET byalso Shawn he was deported to his Native country Syria. Syria is not a US ally, care to guess why??
No Poofdas
botg
February 29, 2008 - 23:46 ET by shawn228I guess that was a bad example, I just feel bad for the ones that are truly are innocent and have no right to trial. Yes there are some scumbags that do not deserve trial, but no all of them. I guess it is a slippery slope on who is lying and who is not.
unfortunately Shawn
February 29, 2008 - 23:57 ET bythere will always be exceptions and mistakes.
Still we need the rule of law and not 'the exception of law'. When you start on the exceptions more innocents get hurt. C'est la vie as B would say.
No Poofdas
The other thing I say, botg
March 1, 2008 - 00:03 ET by BlondeIs....
"I don't manage by the exception".
If we managed (anything) by the exception, we'd all go insane. Society would be chaos.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B
March 1, 2008 - 00:07 ET byany wonder the society is going nuts? With the PC crowd and all?
No Poofdas
Precisely, botg
March 1, 2008 - 00:09 ET by BlondeAll of the crybabies want a "rule" to govern each and every single possible variant of any given situation they might encounter in a day.
It's maddening!
Suck it up, and get on with it, I always say....alas, long week, looking forward to sleeping in tomorrow...yay!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
i get to go to work
March 1, 2008 - 00:12 ET byi get to go to work tomorrow, sleep for me will ya?
No Poofdas
Sure.
March 1, 2008 - 00:16 ET by BlondeHow long?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B till
March 1, 2008 - 00:21 ET bythese guys show up at a neighborhood party again
No Poofdas
I'm well aware of WTC and
February 29, 2008 - 23:36 ET by balboaI'm well aware of WTC and 9/11, thanks.
If the army is sure that all those people are the enemy, then great. But I seem to recall that some people have already been freed.
Bal
February 29, 2008 - 23:39 ET bythere's a firefight going on, do you leave the area or join in? Your choice makes it clear what your status is.
No Poofdas
So who are these people that
February 29, 2008 - 23:55 ET by balboaSo who are these people that have been freed? How did the army make a mistake with those?
what mistake??????
March 1, 2008 - 00:00 ET byWere these people in violation of the Geneva Convention? Yes they were, and subject to execution per the Geneva Convention. But instead they were evaluated and deemed safe to release. Sounds like mercy not mistake.
No Poofdas
botg, just curious what
March 1, 2008 - 14:46 ET by balboabotg, just curious what range of violations we're talking about. Were those captured participating in firefights? Or were there those engaged in less?
Well, bal
February 29, 2008 - 23:41 ET by BlondeKeep on hugging the terr's....it's cute.
And when the Army captures these little p****s after a fire fight...I suppose you'd think they were boy scouts working on their Eagle Badges, huh?
Sheesh, grow up.
Better yet, enlist.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
You're being ridiculous. Try
February 29, 2008 - 23:54 ET by balboaYou're being ridiculous. Try to have a conversation for once.
Bugger Off, Bal
February 29, 2008 - 23:56 ET by Blonde"Try to have a conversation for once".
Pot calling kettle.....sheesh...this from the one-line snarker.
That was your most pathetic attempt ever. Seriously. Try harder.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
@Blonde: "If they're
March 1, 2008 - 10:52 ET by j. frank wilson@Blonde: "If they're caught on the battlefield..." That's the crux. One of the Gitmo myths is that all the detainees down there (past and present) were "captured on the battlefield." Thank you, Rummie! So many weren't...
J Frank: One of the myths
March 3, 2008 - 10:01 ET by BDJ Frank:
One of the myths currently making the rounds of the liberal circles is that the only counter-terrorism action currenlty ongoing is in Afghanistan. This is innaccurate. The Global war on Terrorism is just that - Global.
wool, by George, I think you got it.
February 28, 2008 - 18:38 ET by R D HelmI suspect that they want to see America on trial and that always makes me wonder who they are for.
That is exactly what they want.
As far as I am concerned, these people are purposely aiding our enemies in this war, which gets very close to what I consider treasonous behavior.
So, who will McCain apologize to first for being a Republican, his democrat friends across the aisle, or to us?
j. frank, this is NOT a law-enforcement issue.
February 28, 2008 - 18:32 ET by R D HelmThis is a war, pure and simple. The Islamo-supremecists are not criminals, they are enemy warriors who have vowed to destroy our very way of life. And unless you have been lost in a Peruvian rain storm for the last thirty years are so, the Islamo-supremecists are currently winning.
Treating these people like common criminals instead of what they truly are will only result in the death of Western society.
So, who will McCain apologize to first for being a Republican, his democrat friends across the aisle, or to us?
Punish the guilty?
February 28, 2008 - 18:45 ET by woolBalboa- I think- perhaps naively- that we all agree on the goal. However, in the haste to have Gitmo labeled as "Bush's Gulag", people lost sight of the fact that there was little or no actual punishment being handed out. There has not been wholesale water boarding and the worst thing that happened to a few prisoners was being photographed in womens undies- which many leftist have been fighting hard to make acceptable here. (as a side note, I had a buddy that did the same. He claimed it was for comfort, but it didn't effect my level of indifference)
Well, you don't think
February 28, 2008 - 19:41 ET by balboaWell, you don't think there's any punishment, but you have Abu Graib, then this guy from the documentary who winds up dead...people start assuming things, perhaps incorrectly.
Kinda like Vince Foster,
February 29, 2008 - 06:28 ET by Troika37Kinda like Vince Foster, huh?
NYT ineptitude
February 28, 2008 - 19:41 ET by pocomocoLet us take this stupidity to its ultimate conclusion if it happens that McCain was not qualified to be president because it would be the liberals worst nightmare in the form of either a Huckabee, Romney, or Thompson president.
This, my friends, is the quality of wishful-thinking reporters the NYT has on its staff as they appear not to be able to think beyond the end of their scrawny noses.
Hulse should consider docking himself a weeks pay for such ineptitude.
Wow, I wasn't sure they
February 28, 2008 - 20:30 ET by RickTaLifeWow, I wasn't sure they could sink much lower after the hit piece...but congratulations New York Times...you've lowered the bar about a thousand miles below sea level. Talk about desperate. lol.
John McCain Geneva Convention Vince Foster Insurgents
February 29, 2008 - 00:05 ET by Ozonecharlieozonecharlie What does the Geneva Convention have to do with John McCain?
Wow! Blogs are fun.
New York Times is classic on doing hit pieces on Republican politicians while looking the other way at Democratic politians.
But lets get off the subject.
1)Did Vince Foster really commit suicide? 2) Or did Bill and Hillary have something to do with his death?
3)When will the insurgents start wearing uniforms?
4) What nation state will they represent?
McNYT-'toon
February 29, 2008 - 07:21 ET by sarcasmoBok's (or maybe it's Reason's) caption on the cartoon about the previous controversy is priceless.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Oh the web they weave....
February 29, 2008 - 07:34 ET by NavyBuckeyeIf some one out there has the power, this point needs to be brought up. The NYT just messed up big time.
First the the term natural born citizen has never been legally defined. It is just accepted that those born of TWO US citizens is considered natural born.....therefore McCain meets the universally understood idea of natural citizen. McCain meets this, as well as being born on US Sovereign land at the time. Barry Goldwater met this in the sixties since he was born in Arizona while it was a US territory. It was accepted that he met the natural requirments because Arizona was US soil and his parents were citizens.
Here is the good stuff folks:
BHO was born to a Kenyan father(father was legal citizen of Kenya, but enrolled as a foreign student at the University of Hawaii at Monoa). Now more goodies.....Non-Citizen father and Citizen mother means Barrack is not a natural citizen but rather natralized citizen as determined by this Supreme Court case
Here is a more credible link: http://supreme.justia.com/us/366/308/
This sets the precedent, and later cases have declared that the children in these cases may not be natural born citizens but rather fall under the same criteria as "naturalized citizens". I am still searching for more recent cases. But if the NYTs wants to open this door go ahead. All Supreme Court precedent is in favor of McCain but goes against BHO. So technically His Holiness Barrack should not be eligible to run.......irony at its greatest.
Now I am no legal guru so this could be wrong, but it falls under the same line as the NYT's story and should be addressed.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter” - Thomas Jefferson
Montana v Kennedy
February 29, 2008 - 10:16 ET by Jack BauerMontana v Kennedy adjudicated a baby born on foreign territory to an American citizen mother.
I thought Hawaii became 50th state in 1959, so doesn't that make the status of Batrack Obama's father, moot?
Seeing his American citizen mother gave birth on U.S. soil in 1961?
yes, I looked that up as well......
February 29, 2008 - 10:30 ET by NavyBuckeyeIn most of the things that I have found, it doesn't matter the location(to an extent, you have to read all the legalise to undertand what I am saying)....all of the supreme court cases I looked at(note I haven't spent hours reading all of the side notes) and most play on the citizenship of the parents, rather than the location of birth. Case in point: you can be born to two US citizens in Spain, at a Spanish hospital, obtain a Spanish birth certificate but become a natural US citizen. The key factor here is that the supreme court does not deny he is a citizen(talking about the Montana case). They are just saying that these criteria(one non-citizen parent and one citizen parent) cause the child to fall under the same jurisdiction of some one who immigrates and becomes naturalized. They are citizens just not eligible for certain things reserved for those natural to the country: i.e the Presidency. Confusing I know, but makes sense if you think about it.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter” - Thomas Jefferson
McCain's birth place falsified.
March 3, 2008 - 18:37 ET by BritcomBefore you spend all your time looking that up, we need to establish where McCain was born. The hospital McCain was supposed to have been born in, wasn't built until at least five (5) years after McCain was born. The nearest hospital was in Colon, Republic of Panama (not in the US Canal Zone). Apparently we were lied to.
Link to proof >>
---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
»→ Natural Born
February 29, 2008 - 09:16 ET by Cool Arrow"natural-born citizen" huh?
Any Presidents born C-Section?
♣ a seal
you can play on words...
February 29, 2008 - 09:51 ET by NavyBuckeyeall you want, but facts are facts. These are the legal terms used to describe US citizenship. Naturalized and Natural. Your attempt at humor is simple and unwarranted. Not to mention not funny.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter” - Thomas Jefferson
@Cool Arrow: Was McCain from
February 29, 2008 - 11:31 ET by j. frank wilson@Cool Arrow: Was McCain from his mother's womb untimely rip'd?
Gitmo is not in the USofA
February 29, 2008 - 14:24 ET by retroconCheck out this good history of the Gitmo "contract"... it's not like an embassy, which is declared soveriegn US territory... Castro just knows we'll kick his butt if he tries to take it back, seriously.
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/funfacts/guantan.htm
(don't know why it's "funfacts" though)
Many bases are not necessarily US territory, strictly speaking, except by the agreements in their lease, purchase, or contract (SOFA) with the host nation.
This issue isn't about US territory, it's about "natural born citizenship."
Only in the 14th amendment do we see a reference to "in the United states." Article II., section 1. of the US Constitution - executive branch stuff - says "No person except a natural born Citizen... shall be eligible to the Office of President... Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
From the offical US Citizenship and Immigration Services website
"Generally, U.S. citizen parents of children born abroad may file a N-600 Application for Certificate of Citizenship. This form should be completed in accordance with the instructions provided and should be accompanied by 2 photographs of the child, copies of any documents that verify eligibility, and the required filing fee to be considered complete and ready to process."
"Important note: Children born abroad of U.S. citizen parents derive citizenship from their parents. The Certificate of Citizenship is merely a record of citizenship - it does not confer citizenship on an applicant."
"Natural Born Citizen" not "naturalized citizen"
seems to me, this is kind of a non-starter of a story...
/from AZ and don't like McCain
//will live with him over the lib socialists